PGA Tour Players Not Marking Balls when In Position to Assist Another Player, #Backstopping

[Hardspoon]

8 hours ago, Vinsk said:

We don’t see this in the Ryder Cup do we? So when money is on the line it’s a mutual agreement to assist each other but when it’s a USA vs Europe ....you’re on your own? It’s all a competition so seems they would all just treat it as such.

There's money on the line either way.  In match play, you'd never do something that would directly assist your opponent.  In stroke play, the "assistance" seems diluted.  I guarantee you that in a playoff or on the 17th hole on a close Sunday in the final twosome, this bullshit wouldn't be going on.

[Vinsk]

49 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

There's money on the line either way.  In match play, you'd never do something that would directly assist your opponent.  In stroke play, the "assistance" seems diluted.  I guarantee you that in a playoff or on the 17th hole on a close Sunday in the final twosome, this bullshit wouldn't be going on.

Yeah. Just mark the damn ball.

[Shorty]

20 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Yeah. Just mark the damn ball.

Agreed. But I have a take on this.

Remember when Ricki Fowler first started playing on tour? Every single time he'd putted out he would walk around tapping down spike marks all around the hole, in what I thought was a pretty obvious ploy to be seen as a good guy (which he is) looking after the other players. With so many up and comers, I think that this trend of not marking balls may have started with a younger player trying to "help" an established player and be seen in a positive light, and it becomes the expected thing. For example, just say a well known player has a bunker shot where there is no way the ball is stopping within 6 feet unless it goes in and newbie pro leaves his ball behind the hole knowing that it could help the established player. It has become so ubiquitous now that if a player - especially a less established one doesn't do it - it looks like they're a bad sport and selfish. It becomes the norm. Just my take.

[Hardspoon]

2 hours ago, Shorty said:

It has become so ubiquitous now that if a player - especially a less established one doesn't do it - it looks like they're a bad sport and selfish. It becomes the norm. Just my take.

Completely agree - and that's part of what annoys me so much about it!  Now, it's self-perpetuating.

[The Recreational Golfer]

This is in the ball park of this topic, and has been brought up, but here is my conundrum. I play with a guy who won't give you time to mark your ball after your approach putt. As soon as your ball stops, he's chipping, and if his ball hits yours, tough.

It's not very good manners for him to do that, but is the a rule on this that allows me to make him wait until I have marked before he can hit?

[klineka]

26 minutes ago, The Recreational Golfer said:

This is in the ball park of this topic, and has been brought up, but here is my conundrum. I play with a guy who won't give you time to mark your ball after your approach putt. As soon as your ball stops, he's chipping, and if his ball hits yours, tough.

It's not very good manners for him to do that, but is the a rule on this that allows me to make him wait until I have marked before he can hit?

I agree that its rude of him to do that, but since you have to replace your ball back to the original spot where it was before his ball hit yours, why does it matter since it has no impact on your score? (other than being rude/annoying)

[Missouri Swede]

40 minutes ago, The Recreational Golfer said:

This is in the ball park of this topic, and has been brought up, but here is my conundrum. I play with a guy who won't give you time to mark your ball after your approach putt. As soon as your ball stops, he's chipping, and if his ball hits yours, tough.

It's not very good manners for him to do that, but is the a rule on this that allows me to make him wait until I have marked before he can hit?

I think this is what you want (note that it's for stroke play):

Quote

22/6

 Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted

Q.In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A.No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1.

Quote

3-4/1

Competitor Not Given Opportunity to Lift Ball Assisting Fellow-Competitor

Q.In stroke play, A's ball lies near the hole in a position to assist B, whose ball lies off the putting green. A states his intention to lift his ball under Rule 22-1. B mistakenly believes that A does not have the right to lift his ball and plays before A has an opportunity to lift his ball. What is the ruling?

A.B is disqualified under Rule 3-4 as he intentionally denied A's right to lift his ball. It is irrelevant that B did so in ignorance of the Rules.

12 minutes ago, klineka said:

I agree that its rude of him to do that, but since you have to replace your ball back to the original spot where it was before his ball hit yours, why does it matter since it has no impact on your score? (other than being rude/annoying)

If it's a stroke-play competition, it gives your fellow-competitor an advantage over you (and the rest of the field).

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Missouri Swede
added decision 3-4/1

[iacas]

2 hours ago, The Recreational Golfer said:

It's not very good manners for him to do that, but is the a rule on this that allows me to make him wait until I have marked before he can hit?

Yes, there is a rule. Thanks @Missouri Swede.

[klineka]

15 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

3-4/1

Competitor Not Given Opportunity to Lift Ball Assisting Fellow-Competitor

Q.In stroke play, A's ball lies near the hole in a position to assist B, whose ball lies off the putting green. A states his intention to lift his ball under Rule 22-1. B mistakenly believes that A does not have the right to lift his ball and plays before A has an opportunity to lift his ball. What is the ruling?

A.B is disqualified under Rule 3-4 as he intentionally denied A's right to lift his ball. It is irrelevant that B did so in ignorance of the Rules.

I have a few questions about this. First, does player A have to verbally state his intention to lift his ball (similar to how you have to declare you are hitting a provisional) in order for this rule to take affect?

Second, does it matter if player B is simply doing it for pace of play and has no intent to try and gain an advantage?

Third, where does one draw the line/define the verbiage of "ball lies near the hole in a position to assist"  Couldnt that apply to pretty much any ball on the putting surface between player B and the hole? If another person had a ball 20 feet to the right of the hole pin high and I had a normal short range bump and run chip from 10 yds or so, I'd never think about asking him to mark his ball, but technically it could be in a position to assist my ball if I hit an absolutely dreadful shanked chip.

[Missouri Swede]

13 hours ago, klineka said:

First, does player A have to verbally state his intention to lift his ball (similar to how you have to declare you are hitting a provisional) in order for this rule to take affect?

Stating so would remove any ambiguity.

13 hours ago, klineka said:

Second, does it matter if player B is simply doing it for pace of play and has no intent to try and gain an advantage?

I don't see intent mentioned.

13 hours ago, klineka said:

Third, where does one draw the line/define the verbiage of "ball lies near the hole in a position to assist"

Some decisions that deal with these issues:

Quote

22/1

 Mental Interference by Another Ball

Q.In order for A to be entitled to have B's ball lifted because of interference, does B's ball have to be on or near A's line of play and thus in a position to interfere physically with A's ball? Or may A also have B's ball lifted if it is off his line of play but catches his eye and thus constitutes mental interference?

A.A player may, under Rule 22-2, have another ball lifted if the ball interferes either physically or mentally with his play.

22/2

 Player Claims That Another Ball Lying 30 Yards Away Interferes with His Play

Q.B's ball is three feet from the green on a direct line to the hole with A's ball which is 30 yards from the green. May A require B to lift his ball, on the grounds that the ball interferes with his play?

A.Yes.

22/3

 Player Requests Another Player to Lift His Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Ball Might Interfere or Assist

Q.A's ball is on the putting green. B's ball is 100 yards from the green. B requests A to lift his ball under Rule 22-2 as it might interfere with his (B's) play. This happens several times during the round. Is such procedure permissible?

A.Rule 22 is intended to cover situations where there is a reasonable possibility that one ball might assist or interfere with another ball. If the Rule is being abused, as in this case, the Committee would be justified in penalizing B for undue delay (Rule 6-7).

 

[klineka]

23 hours ago, klineka said:

First, does player A have to verbally state his intention to lift his ball (similar to how you have to declare you are hitting a provisional) in order for this rule to take affect?

10 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Stating so would remove any ambiguity.

So if player A does not verbally state his intention to lift his ball (lets say player A lags a 60 foot putt up to a few feet, so hes just walking across the green towards his ball), and player B is just ready and plays his chip shot, then there would be no penalty for player B since player A did not verbally state his intention to lift his ball, correct?

 

[Missouri Swede]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

So if player A does not verbally state his intention to lift his ball (lets say player A lags a 60 foot putt up to a few feet, so hes just walking across the green towards his ball), and player B is just ready and plays his chip shot, then there would be no penalty for player B since player A did not verbally state his intention to lift his ball, correct?

 

In the current practice we see on the PGA tour, that appears to be the case. 

Not sayin’ that’s correct, though. Kinda the point of the thread. 

[Missouri Swede]

Maybe another example:

 

 

[boogielicious]

20 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

Maybe another example:

 

 

I didn't see the time line, as in was Jordan ready while Rory was walking up. If he was, then I have no issue. If Jordan wasn't ready, then Rory should have marked.

[iacas]

 

[Vinsk]

Just saw that a bit ago. Blatantly done. 

[DeadMan]

This is really not a good look, on many levels:

 

[Zeph]

And nearly nobody sees an issue with it in the Twitter comments. I don't know if they don't understand or just don't grasp the impact it could potentially have. That Finau video is pretty bad.