Orlando Gay Night Club Shooting

[Lihu]

My main issue with making stricter gun laws or banning them completely is that it only changes the weapons a mass killer would use.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/

[jgreen85]

43 minutes ago, Lihu said:

You're not getting what I stated. I was saying that even a match rifle that's custom made in the USA only costs 5K. No one will ever have to pay $20K for a rifle.

Proposing to out price rifles from the poor isn't going to stop this type of mass killing. Mental illness occurs in non-poor people as well, and as far as I know Omar Mateen was not poor and could have afforded the same rifle at $20K anyway. It's not like he was saving for the future or anything. . .

It's "only" $5k b/c it's LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!! Illegal items cost MORE. They have a RISK PREMIUM!! If I sell this to you, I can go to jail!! FOR YEARS!!! I'm now a FELON!!! Therefore, I command a much HIGHER PRICE!!!! Why would they not have to!!! hell, I can go to jail, just for having this, or having the components to make this (think drug paraphernalia).

But these rich people would then have to take their $20, 40, 50k CASH in to back alleys to acquire these weapons!! And would first have to even find someone willing to sell it! This is not trivial. This is a huge risk. How often do you carry around tens of thousands of dollars cash!!!!! It's considered very, very, very dumb to do that.

This guy is going to save up $20k cash? He was a security guard, right? Probably doesn't earn much more than $40k in a year! How would he accumulate $20k (and $20k would probably be cheap) cash? And then find someone willing to sell the gun, the ammo, the magazines, etc? Possible sure, likely? 

[Lihu]

9 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

It's "only" $5k b/c it's LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!! Illegal items cost MORE. They have a RISK PREMIUM!! If I sell this to you, I can go to jail!! FOR YEARS!!! I'm now a FELON!!! Therefore, I command a much HIGHER PRICE!!!! Why would they not have to!!! hell, I can go to jail, just for having this, or having the components to make this (think drug paraphernalia).

But these rich people would then have to take their $20, 40, 50k CASH in to back alleys to acquire these weapons!! And would first have to even find someone willing to sell it! This is not trivial. This is a huge risk. How often do you carry around tens of thousands of dollars cash!!!!! It's considered very, very, very dumb to do that.

This guy is going to save up $20k cash? He was a security guard, right? Probably doesn't earn much more than $40k in a year! How would he accumulate $20k (and $20k would probably be cheap) cash? And then find someone willing to sell the gun, the ammo, the magazines, etc? Possible sure, likely? 

 

Mateen would have still gotten the same gun if it cost $20K or more, it didn't matter to him. Plus, gun laws would not have affected him. He had licenses for armed security.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=G4S_Security_Services/Hourly_Rate

From Wiki:

Quote

From October 2006 to April 2007, Mateen worked as a prison guard for the Florida Department of Corrections, being assigned to the Marin Correctional Institution. He then left the position for an "administrative matter unrelated to misconduct."^[19][30]

Mateen then worked for British-based security firm G4S Secure Solutions in Jupiter, Florida, from September 2007 until his death.^{[16][31][32][33]} The company said two screenings of Mateen—one conducted upon hiring and the other in 2013—had raised no red flags.^[34] He held an active firearms license and an armed security guard license.^[35][36] He passed a psychological test and had no criminal record.^[37] In 2010 he was videotaped while working security for a site related to the BP oil spill.^[38][39] Mateen said of those working on the cleanup: "Everybody's just, get out to get paid. They're like hoping for more oil to come out and more people to complain so they'll have jobs. They want more disaster to happen." Video of his comments were included in a 2012 documentary, The Big Fix.^[40]

 

BTW, guns are highly illegal in China. http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/

30 dead and 130 injured by 2 meat cleavers.

[baller7345]

18 minutes ago, Lihu said:

30 dead and 130 injured by 2 meat cleavers

" Twenty-nine people were killed and 130 were injured Saturday night when 10 men armed with long knives stormed the station in the southwest Chinese city of Kunming, the state news agency Xinhua reported. "

10 Men.  10 men with guns would have probably made that a lot more dead vs injured.  Still that is one crazy story....

[Patch]

A local tv station reporter went to a gun outlet store. The lady reporter purchased a semi automatic assault rifle for $900.00. With the back ground check, instruction on how to use it, payment, and leaving the store with the gun/ammo, the sale took all of 15 minutes. 

Although legal, that's seems pretty fast to be able to purchase that type of weapon. 

[Lihu]

14 minutes ago, Patch said:

A local tv station reporter went to a gun outlet store. The lady reporter purchased a semi automatic assault rifle for $900.00. With the back ground check, instruction on how to use it, payment, and leaving the store with the gun/ammo, the sale took all of 15 minutes. 

Although legal, that's seems pretty fast to be able to purchase that type of weapon. 

Yeah, they're definitely more efficient than purchasing a car, but that's primarily because they don't have a "manager" to haggle a price you already agreed to and a "finance" manager to discuss outrageously high interest rates and sell you upholstery spray.

15 minutes ago, baller7345 said:

" Twenty-nine people were killed and 130 were injured Saturday night when 10 men armed with long knives stormed the station in the southwest Chinese city of Kunming, the state news agency Xinhua reported. "

10 Men.  10 men with guns would have probably made that a lot more dead vs injured.  Still that is one crazy story....

Yes, that's about 16 victims per perpetrator. There have been other attacks, but that was before they started reporting these types of incidents.

Here's a more recent one: http://www.mining.com/fifty-killed-in-a-knife-attack-at-a-chinese-colliery/

50 dead and 50 injured.

[jgreen85]

33 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

Mateen would have still gotten the same gun if it cost $20K or more, it didn't matter to him. Plus, gun laws would not have affected him. He had licenses for armed security.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=G4S_Security_Services/Hourly_Rate

uh? so an AT BEST $30/hour, and $62k pre-tax income - he can save $20k cash, find someone willing to sell an illegal semi-automatic weapon, with the ammo, with the magazines, and he would have the discipline to to spend at least a year to do all of this? and he wouldn't be caught despite being under investigation by the FBI? you've gone past the realm of reasonable on this dude. if this were illegal, the FBI would've been able to arrest him for simply acquiring the weapon, case closed. only reason he wasn't arrested is b/c he technically hadn't broken a law. You're not reasonable. 

I just need these gun advocates to say "this is not my problem." just admit it, these senseless deaths are worth the price to you of being able to own whatever gun you want. Cut this nonsense about it wouldn't work b/c it would. Owning these types of guns is more important to you than stopping these types of crimes. 

[Lihu]

29 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

uh? so an AT BEST $30/hour, and $62k pre-tax income - he can save $20k cash, find someone willing to sell an illegal semi-automatic weapon, with the ammo, with the magazines, and he would have the discipline to to spend at least a year to do all of this? and he wouldn't be caught despite being under investigation by the FBI? you've gone past the realm of reasonable on this dude. if this were illegal, the FBI would've been able to arrest him for simply acquiring the weapon, case closed. only reason he wasn't arrested is b/c he technically hadn't broken a law. You're not reasonable. 

I just need these gun advocates to say "this is not my problem." just admit it, these senseless deaths are worth the price to you of being able to own whatever gun you want. Cut this nonsense about it wouldn't work b/c it would. Owning these types of guns is more important to you than stopping these types of crimes. 

He wouldn't need to pay black market prices, he had the ability to purchase guns legally. Wouldn't have made a difference in his case even if we had the strictest gun laws in place for civilian use.

Secondly, what was he saving for? What's $20k for someone who knows they're going to die anyway?

I'm not going to add one of these or an "uh?" just because you didn't read my post carefully enough to see that he could legally purchase the same firearms he had in the night club. He had active firearms and armed security licenses. He could legally transport them anywhere he wished. He could probably even have written all shooting related expenses off his taxes. Adding one of these or an "uh?" would have been completely childish, and I refuse to do such a thing to a fellow poster.

For your benefit:

Quote

From October 2006 to April 2007, Mateen worked as a prison guard for the Florida Department of Corrections, being assigned to the Marin Correctional Institution. He then left the position for an "administrative matter unrelated to misconduct."^[19][30]

Mateen then worked for British-based security firm G4S Secure Solutions in Jupiter, Florida, from September 2007 until his death.^{[16][31][32][33]} The company said two screenings of Mateen—one conducted upon hiring and the other in 2013—had raised no red flags.^[34]He held an active firearms license and an armed security guard license.^[35][36] He passed a psychological test and had no criminal record.^[37] In 2010 he was videotaped while working security for a site related to the BP oil spill.^[38][39] Mateen said of those working on the cleanup: "Everybody's just, get out to get paid. They're like hoping for more oil to come out and more people to complain so they'll have jobs. They want more disaster to happen." Video of his comments were included in a 2012 documentary, The Big Fix.^[40]

 

[Jeremie Boop]

30 minutes ago, Patch said:

A local tv station reporter went to a gun outlet store. The lady reporter purchased a semi automatic assault rifle for $900.00. With the back ground check, instruction on how to use it, payment, and leaving the store with the gun/ammo, the sale took all of 15 minutes. 

Although legal, that's seems pretty fast to be able to purchase that type of weapon. 

It's not a freaking "assault rifle" for goodness sake... it's a semi-auto sporting rifle. Seriously tired of people calling these rifles by the wrong name. It's absolutely no different than walking in and buying a shotgun or .22 and walking out with it. People are just stuck on these specific weapons because of their tactical look. They have many legitimate uses for hunting and sport shooting and are used a tiny tiny fraction of the time in shootings. Seriously, the most popular rifle sold in the US has been used in a handful of shootings and people act like it's the gun that needs to have restrictions. Are these events tragic and horrible, yes, does the weapon used deserve all this attention, no. What needs attention is the fact that these people who shouldn't be getting their hands on these guns are falling through the cracks. Punish the people who don't properly secure their weapons *parents, friends, family*or the people who sell the weapons circumventing the background checks, and I'm completely fine with requiring background checks for sales at gun shows. Enforce the current laws better, don't add more unnecessary laws that will only impact those of us who follow the laws and rules regarding firearms.

[Gunther]

38 minutes ago, jgreen85 said:

uh? so an AT BEST $30/hour, and $62k pre-tax income - he can save $20k cash, find someone willing to sell an illegal semi-automatic weapon, with the ammo, with the magazines, and he would have the discipline to to spend at least a year to do all of this? and he wouldn't be caught despite being under investigation by the FBI? you've gone past the realm of reasonable on this dude. if this were illegal, the FBI would've been able to arrest him for simply acquiring the weapon, case closed. only reason he wasn't arrested is b/c he technically hadn't broken a law. You're not reasonable. 

I just need these gun advocates to say "this is not my problem." just admit it, these senseless deaths are worth the price to you of being able to own whatever gun you want. Cut this nonsense about it wouldn't work b/c it would. Owning these types of guns is more important to you than stopping these types of crimes. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

It's been done, from '94-'04.  Even the James Brady group has analyzed the data and concluded there was no impact.  It doesn't work.

I need the anti-gun zealots to try a new idea.  Make guns unavailable to folks on the terror watch list, I'm good with that, as is the NRA, as is Trump. 

Just stop trying to take guns away from the citizenry.  They are part of our culture, it is a right to own them as it is a right for me to own a laptop or a pencil.  Do not fear what you don't know.

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, Gunther said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

It's been done, from '94-'04.  Even the James Brady group has analyzed the data and concluded there was no impact.  It doesn't work.

I need the anti-gun zealots to try a new idea.  Make guns unavailable to folks on the terror watch list, I'm good with that, as is the NRA, as is Trump. 

Just stop trying to take guns away from the citizenry.  They are part of our culture, it is a right to own them as it is a right for me to own a laptop or a pencil.  Do not fear what you don't know.

I was unaware that people on this watch list could still purchase firearms? Well that's a loophole that would be good to close. . .

[drmevo]

5 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I was unaware that people on this watch list could still purchase firearms? Well that's a loophole that would be good to close. . .

I'm not sure if that's different from the no-fly list, but if not, that was what I said in my first post in this thread.  However, I was under the impression that the NRA was against that.  Have they changed their tune @Gunther or are we talking about different things?

 

Edited June 16, 2016 by drmevo

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, drmevo said:

I'm not sure if that's different from the no-fly list, but if not, that was what I said in my first post in this thread.  However, I was under the impression that the NRA was against that.  Have they changed their tune @Gunther or are we talking about different things?

Yeah, that's pretty bad.

[Gunther]

1 minute ago, drmevo said:

I'm not sure if that's different from the no-fly list, but if not, that was what I said in my first post in this thread.  However, I was under the impression that the NRA was against that.  Have they changed their tune @Gunther or are we talking about different things?

 

Not sure they changed but could have.  I heard a quote from the NRA yesterday that fully backed this provision.

It is different from the no-fly list.  It encompasses something like 800,000 people, but only around 2% are US citizens.  I need to do a little research to confirm everything I've said, no time presently.

I'd back a no-fly list ban too, while on that list you shouldn't be able to buy a gun.  If you're on there inadvertently and weren't aware, it will be inconvenient for you at the point of sale but get yourself off the list and head back to Gander Mountain.

[14ledo81]

1 hour ago, jgreen85 said:

I just need these gun advocates to say "this is not my problem." just admit it, these senseless deaths are worth the price to you of being able to own whatever gun you want. Cut this nonsense about it wouldn't work b/c it would. Owning these types of guns is more important to you than stopping these types of crimes. 

 

How do you know it would work?   You don't, and that is why I can't support it.

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Gunther said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

It's been done, from '94-'04.  Even the James Brady group has analyzed the data and concluded there was no impact.  It doesn't work.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf

Having said this, the ban’s impact on gun violence is likely to be small at best,
and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs were used in no more than 8% of
gun crimes even before the ban. Guns with LCMs are used in up to a quarter of gun
crimes, but it is not clear how often the outcomes of gun attacks depend on the ability to
fire more than 10 shots (the current limit on magazine capacity) without reloading. 

It's more that they didn't have enough data and the data collected wasn't detailed enough to make the most accurate conclusion. 

They did conclude that limiting the amount of bullets in a magazine might be the more impact measure over if the weapon is an assault weapon as defined by the 1994 bill. 

As a general matter, hit rates tend to be low in gunfire incidents, so having more shots to fire rapidly can increase the likelihood that offenders hit their targets, and perhaps bystanders as well. While not entirely consistent, the few available studies contrasting attacks with different types of guns and magazines generally suggest that attacks with semiautomatics – including AWs and other semiautomatics with LCMs – result in more shots fired, persons wounded, and wounds per victim than do other gun attacks. Further, a study of handgun attacks in one city found that about 3% of gunfire incidents involved more than 10 shots fired, and those cases accounted for nearly 5% of gunshot victims. 

9 minutes ago, Gunther said:

They are part of our culture, it is a right to own them as it is a right for me to own a laptop or a pencil.  Do not fear what you don't know.

Just to throw that logic out the window for ya. Slavery was part of our culture and allowed by the Constitution. 

[Gunther]

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Just to throw that logic out the window for ya. Slavery was part of our culture and allowed by the Constitution. 

Honestly, that does not change my thinking in the slightest.  Completely unrelated and I'd question whether it was cultural or more of a niche.  

A much higher pctg of Americans own guns than ever owned slaves.

[Lihu]

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It's more that they didn't have enough data and the data collected wasn't detailed enough to make the most accurate conclusion. 

I'm kind of glad we don't have enough data, and would like to keep it that way.

 

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

As a general matter, hit rates tend to be low in gunfire incidents,

Mateen was a trained armed security guard, in fact much better trained than the average guard at a bank or something. This is one reason his hit rate was so high. It was his training. IDK what you can do to prevent a bi-polar security guard or ex-military from going crazy one day and taking out a large crowd of people.

 

Quote

Just to throw that logic out the window for ya. Slavery was part of our culture and allowed by the Constitution. 

Not sure that it was ever explicitly allowed?