Marking Ball On Green

[Gary Page]

Hi All,

I have a question that I know the rule too, however would like peoples ' First thought ' answer so I can get an idea of what the majority of golfers think.  

So my father was on the 9th green yesterday in our Club C 2nd Round.  He missed a putt from inside 5 feet, then went to mark it from about a foot, however he slipped while in the process knocking the ball with his putter.  He replaced the ball with his playing partners in agreement, and tapped out.  At this point he assumed he'd been giving a penalty, but wanted clarification after his round.  The club committee made the decision that it was a penalty under rule 18-2.  All happy, he accepted it, and moved on ( he even told his partners he knocked the ball), as they hadn't seen it.  So he handed is card and signed over to the match committee on their decision.  Anyway, the following morning, the committee were doing the results, and reviewed the decision, and realised they'd unfairly penalised my dad, therefore reversing the rule, which fell under 20-1 (when a player moves the ball or marker by accident while trying to mark the location on the green, no penalty will incur and ball must be replaced).  All great my dad was happy, and the club changed his score to this, under the guidance of the R & A.  His score was then 75 Gross without the wrongly applied penalty.  

So this actually meant my dad qualified for the club in 15th position, putting out someone on the same total (157).  This has caused quite a riff and two people have complained to the club (one of which it doesn't even affect).  My question is really, what would everyone assume this rule would be, if not already aware? 

To add to this, my father drew myself in the last 16 knockout, as I was 2nd seed.  I just feel terrible for him because I think he's done all the right things, but it was the club who called the wrong ruling, not himself, so reversing it seems totally plausible, and within the rules of golf.  
 

[iacas]

Your father should have been penalized. The ball is only allowed to move if the action is directly related to marking or replacing the ball or marker.

Of course, I'm assuming he wasn't using his putter, but instead a coin or something, to mark his ball.

[Gary Page]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your father should have been penalized. The ball is only allowed to move if the action is directly related to marking or replacing the ball or marker.

Of course, I'm assuming he wasn't using his putter, but instead a coin or something, to mark his ball.

Using a coin, under rule 20-1 you should read it, then come back see what you think.  Just trying to get a feeler out here.  I'm 200% positive it's not a penalty.  Only time it is, is when you move the ball with equipment when not attempting to mark the ball.  

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Gary Page said:

Using a coin, under rule 20-1 you should read it, then come back see what you think.  Just trying to get a feeler out here.  I'm 200% positive it's not a penalty.  Only time it is, is when you move the ball with equipment when not attempting to mark the ball.  

If I've understood what you wrote correctly, it's a penalty.

20-1/15 - Meaning of "Directly Attributable" in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a

Q.What is meant by the phrase "directly attributable to the specific act" in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a?

A.In Rule 20-1 the phrase means the specific act of placing a ball-marker behind the ball, placing a club to the side of the ball, or lifting the ball such that the player's hand, the placement of the ball-marker or the club, or the lifting of the ball causes the ball or the ball-marker to move.

In Rule 20-3a the phrase means the specific act of placing or replacing a ball in front of a ball-marker, placing a club to the side of a ball-marker or lifting the ball-marker such that the player's hand, the placement of the ball or club, or the lifting of the ball-marker causes the ball or the ball-markerto move.

Under either Rule, any accidental movement of the ball or the ball-marker which occurs before or after this specific act, such as dropping the ball or ball-marker, regardless of the height from which it was dropped, is not considered to be "directly attributable" and would result in the player incurring a penalty stroke.

If he was marking the ball with a coin, and accidentally moved the ball with his putter, then the motion was not directly attributable to the act of marking the ball. He wasn't marking it with his putter.

You can't accidentally kick the ball and say "well, I was bending over to mark it with this coin, so it's all good."

[Gary Page]

But how is it?  It can't be, it states in that meaning of attributable that, putter would be to the side, marking the ball with one hand, and moving ball with hand or equipment would not incur a penalty.  Unless this is trying to say marking the ball with your putter is acceptable, that would make less sense, considering we could all do that and say '' Oops moved it with my putter while marking it with my putter ''

so to sum it up, it's better to mark with your putter lol?  

Kicking the ball is different, because that's not an attributable marking procedure is it, where as putter to one side, and leaning down to mark with your hand is.  

 

It just seems hilarious that marking a ball with a putter is '' Equipment '' so no penalty, but slipping while marking, hitting with the same type of equipment that is allowed to mark it incurs a penalty.  

Certainly not a clear cut rule.  I still think it was the correct one, they decided this anyway, and went ahead with it, but I do understand why we have these crazy rules, because people would start taking advantage and kicking the ball etc.  

There has to be more to this, any examples of guys on tour that have slipped while marking ball?  

[Missouri Swede]

This decision may help a bit, and seems to fit the event you describe: 

Quote

20-1/14

 

Ball Moved by Putter Dropped by Player Approaching Ball to Lift It

Q.A player, approaching his ball on the putting green to lift it, dropped his putter on his ball and moved it. Is it correct that there is no penalty in view of Rule 20-1 under which a player incurs no penalty if he accidentally moves his ball in the process of lifting it?

A.No. The player incurred a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a because the movement of the ball was not directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball.

Also, it is acceptable to use a putter to mark the ball (emphasis mine):

Quote

20-1/16

 Method Used to Mark Position of Ball

Q.The Note to Rule 20-1 provides that "the position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball." Is a player penalized if he uses an object that is not similar to a ball-marker or small coin to mark the position of his ball?

A.No. The provision in the Note to Rule 20-1 is a recommendation of best practice, but there is no penalty for failing to act in accordance with the Note.

Examples of methods of marking the position of a ball that are not recommended, but are permissible, are as follows:

placing the toe of a club at the side of, or behind, the ball;

using a tee;

using a loose impediment;

scratching a line, provided the putting green is not tested (Rule 16-1d) and a line of putt is not indicated (Rule 8-2b). As this practice may cause damage to the putting green, it is discouraged.

However, under Rule 20-1 it is necessary to physically mark the position of the ball. Reference to an existing mark on the ground does not constitute marking the position of a ball. For example, it is not permissible to mark the position with reference to a blemish on the putting green.

When moving a ball or ball-marker to the side to prevent it from interfering with another player's stance or stroke, the player may measure from the side of the ball or ball-marker. In order to accurately replace the ball on the spot from which it was lifted, the steps used to move the ball or ball-marker to the side should be reversed. (Revised)

 

[Asheville]

Does this fit?

Decision 20-1/14 Ball Moved by Putter Dropped by Player Approaching Ball to Lift It

Q. A player, approaching his ball on the putting green to lift it, dropped his putter on his ball and moved it. Is it correct that there is no penalty in view of Rule 20-1 under which a player incurs no penalty if he accidentally moves his ball in the process of lifting it?

A. No. The player incurred a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a because the movement of the ball was not directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball.

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, Gary Page said:

Certainly not a clear cut rule. I still think it was the correct one, they decided this anyway, and went ahead with it, but I do understand why we have these crazy rules, because people would start taking advantage and kicking the ball etc. 

I disagree. It's pretty clear cut. They should have stuck with the penalty to your father.

If the movement was not directly attributable to the act of marking the ball (or replacing the ball and lifting the marker), it's a penalty.

And why would people kick the ball if they had to put it back?

[Buckeyebowman]

I don't know how this would read in either the "Definitions" or the "Decisions", but common sense tells me that your putter is part of your "equipment", and whatever you use to mark your ball is not! If you slip by accident, and strike the ball with your putter you will be penalized.

[Fourputt]

I am with the majority on this.  It was definitely a penalty, and the committee that made this decision was in the wrong.  

[Gary Page]

2 hours ago, Asheville said:

Does this fit?

Decision 20-1/14 Ball Moved by Putter Dropped by Player Approaching Ball to Lift It

Q. A player, approaching his ball on the putting green to lift it, dropped his putter on his ball and moved it. Is it correct that there is no penalty in view of Rule 20-1 under which a player incurs no penalty if he accidentally moves his ball in the process of lifting it?

A. No. The player incurred a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a because the movement of the ball was not directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball.

Yes this fits, however the putter wasn't dropped, it was next to the ball, the toe of the ball hit it, so technically he could have been going into to mark it with his putter, even though he wasn't, people could still easily say that '' I bent down to mark with putter ''.  Anyway to me it is the most pointless rule in the game, because either way, you have to replace it, and what advantage would it gain if you moved it?  Only thing I can think of is to move it closer, but that's a different argument all together.  

The rule was noted as under 20.1 and reversed, and to note I wasn't playing with him, and he called it on himself, only for the committee to reverse it, so what else is he going to do?  Say no thanks, he just said OK thanks for letting me know and moved on.  

This does make some clarification, but in all honesty, the term attribute effort in marking is not clear enough, that must have to come down to the committee deciding whether or not it was, and they obviously have, between discussion of his playing partners and himself.  Some people grumbled over it.  Sadly there's a lot of handbags at our golf club.  As far as I'm concerned if someone is honest, and for what it was, a bloody 1 foot putt, after missing the three footer, I'd be like '' Yes that's fine, if that's the rule, I'm not complaining, because if his putter didn't slip on the green while bending down, i'd not be Q anyway ''.

Thanks for all the information.  Very good forum!

If they were to receive no penalty for accidental kicking of the ball, then they could replace it closer to the hole, deeming that as closer.  I was saying that's why we need these rules, because people would take advantage of it.  

For what it's worth, there are shit load of rules, some are fantastic, some are pointless.

 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Gary Page said:

Yes this fits, however the putter wasn't dropped, it was next to the ball, the toe of the ball hit it, so technically he could have been going into to mark it with his putter, even though he wasn't, people could still easily say that '' I bent down to mark with putter ''.  Anyway to me it is the most pointless rule in the game, because either way, you have to replace it, and what advantage would it gain if you moved it?  Only thing I can think of is to move it closer, but that's a different argument all together.

It's not pointless. You should be careful not to move your golf ball.

 

 

[Gary Page]

Just now, iacas said:

It's not pointless. You should be careful not to move your golf ball.

 

 

How's it not pointless?  You're allowed to mark a ball with a putter, and if it moves you can replace it, but falling on a ball or slipping, and nudging it, is  classed as a penalty.  For me the marking with the putter is far more suspect to cheating, as people could just be going about nudging their ball with their putter while they mark it.  Just saying!!

[Lihu]

My first reaction is a penalty was incurred.

I read the entire thread after deciding and that makes the most sense. The dropping of the putter is only one means of moving the ball. I would extend the intention of the ruling to any action other than the act of marking the ball. Seems like there are many penalties on the green, and that's only one of many...

Your dad was happy taking the penalty that day. They should have left it at that.

So, that brings up another question. Can a committee change a score after a player has signed and turned in the scorecard without his permission?

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Gary Page said:

How's it not pointless?

I already answered that. You're not supposed to be casual with the golf ball and there's a penalty for moving it. The exception is if, say in trying to slip a coin behind it (or remove it).

You can't just accidentally move your ball. The rule helps to safeguard it by penalizing such movement.

You can't lie and if you bump the ball with your putter while you were going to mark it with a coin, you don't get to say "no, I was marking it with my putter." That's not how golf is played.

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

So, that brings up another question. Can a committee change a score after a player has signed and turned in the scorecard without his permission?

See Rule 34-1b

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-34,34-1

5 hours ago, Gary Page said:

 under the guidance of the R & A.  
 

How was this done? 

Were the R&A just asked if the committee could rescind the penalty or did the R&A say there was no penalty?

[Lihu]

6 hours ago, Rulesman said:

See Rule 34-1b

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-34,34-1

Thanks. Makes sense.

[Dormie1360]

Not sure if this will help the OP, but the term "directly attributable" under the rules of golf is narrowly defined.  There is not much leeway.  In workshops we are shown various examples of what is considered directly attributable and what is not.  One example shows a player accidentally dropping his coin from about six inches above the ball, causing the ball to move.  This would be a penalty.  (not directly attributable).

The fact that the putter was being used to mark the ball, and it never left the player's hand, I think are valid considerations.  In the end however, I think the ball moved because of the slip which is not normally part of the marking procedure.  Just my 2 cents.