1999 David Frost denied a drop

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Aflighter said:

Exactly.The ref made wrong call.You cannot make a player take the stance you think is the right stance.If he can make his foot touch path then  god he should get relief.

It has to be a reasonable stance.

I'm speaking generally, too, not specifically to the Frost situation.

[Rulesman]

22 hours ago, Aflighter said:

Exactly.The ref made wrong call.You cannot make a player take the stance you think is the right stance.If he can make his foot touch path then  god he should get relief.

A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction makes the stroke clearly impracticable or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of a clearly unreasonable stroke or an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Rulesman

[Golfingdad]

15 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction makes the stroke clearly impracticable or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of a clearly unreasonable stroke or an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play.

So, in this case, the RO determined that Frost's proposed stance was unnecessarily abnormal, I guess?

[Rulesman]

Exactly

[SG11118]

When a pga player takes a drop, they almost always use their driver (longest club) as a measuring stick.  I've been told in the past that the rules of golf expect the club you pick to measure to be the club you plan to play your shot with, and that golfers get away with using their driver because they could theoretically hit the shot "off the deck" with the driver, and once they drop the ball and no longer have a lie that is appropriate for a driver, they are free to change to a more appropriate club. 

I wasn't able to find anything on this topic in the rules of golf, so I think I've maybe been mis-led.  Is there anything in the rules about the measuring club being the one you plan to hit your next shot with?  If there is, couldn't a rules official not allow a player to use a driver as a measuring device (like this Frost situation), anytime a driver wouldn't be a reasonable club for the next shot?

[DaveP043]

Just now, SG11118 said:

 I've been told in the past that the rules of golf expect the club you pick to measure to be the club you plan to play your shot with,

The club you use when taking your stance while you determine the nearest point of relief must  be one you'd play.  If you're on a cart path, 120 yards from the green, you should find the nearest point where you can have a stance and swing with a 120 yard club.  You could even justify your 110 or 130 yard clubs, but not your driver.  You can then measure the one additional clublength using any club in your bag.  You can even borrow a club "from anyone else" to measure with.

[Golfingdad]

11 minutes ago, SG11118 said:

When a pga player takes a drop, they almost always use their driver (longest club) as a measuring stick.  I've been told in the past that the rules of golf expect the club you pick to measure to be the club you plan to play your shot with, and that golfers get away with using their driver because they could theoretically hit the shot "off the deck" with the driver, and once they drop the ball and no longer have a lie that is appropriate for a driver, they are free to change to a more appropriate club. 

I wasn't able to find anything on this topic in the rules of golf, so I think I've maybe been mis-led.  Is there anything in the rules about the measuring club being the one you plan to hit your next shot with?  If there is, couldn't a rules official not allow a player to use a driver as a measuring device (like this Frost situation), anytime a driver wouldn't be a reasonable club for the next shot?

You can use any club in your bag.

You have me wondering, though, if the PGA Tour guys had some sort of gentlemans agreement whereby the broomstick guys wouldn't use that club for their drop measurements?  And the only "evidence" I base this pondering on is the fact that my cruddy memory cannot picture Adam Scott or anybody else actually measuring with their putter.

EDIT:  @DaveP043 was much clearer on his answer than I was.  I was picturing the question being simply about the club being used to measure the one or two clublengths from the hazard or NPR.  You may have been asking the question that Dave answered though. :)

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

You have me wondering, though, if the PGA Tour guys had some sort of gentlemans agreement whereby the broomstick guys wouldn't use that club for their drop measurements?  And the only "evidence" I base this pondering on is the fact that my cruddy memory cannot picture Adam Scott or anybody else actually measuring with their putter.

I have a not-entirely-clear memory that the decision allowing you to borrow a club may have come as a reaction to the advent of the long putter.  "If "he" can use that 50-inch putter to measure, I should be able to do the same thing."  Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can let us know for sure.

[Rulesman]

  In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke.

Borrowing Club for Measuring Purposes

The Rules require that a ball to be dropped must be dropped by the player himself. For the purpose of measuring, the player who is required to drop a ball may use any club he has selected for the round (Rule 4-4). He may also borrow a club for measuring from anyone, including his partner. If he borrows a club and drops a ball and plays it, he incurs no penalty provided that the same outcome could have been achieved with one of the player's own clubs selected for the round. If he could not have achieved the same outcome by measuring with one of his own clubs, he incurs the penalty under the applicable Rule for playing from a wrong place (see Rule 20-7).

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

You have me wondering, though, if the PGA Tour guys had some sort of gentlemans agreement whereby the broomstick guys wouldn't use that club for their drop measurements?  And the only "evidence" I base this pondering on is the fact that my cruddy memory cannot picture Adam Scott or anybody else actually measuring with their putter.

I've seen Adam Scott drop using his long putter to measure.

[Martyn W]

I remember Langer using his long putter to measure at the Belfry years ago. He had hit it through the fairway on 18, I don't recall the circumstances of the drop, but using the full 2cl of the putter he got out of the rough about a foot into the fairway.

[SG11118]

 

8 hours ago, Martyn W said:

I remember Langer using his long putter to measure at the Belfry years ago. He had hit it through the fairway on 18, I don't recall the circumstances of the drop, but using the full 2cl of the putter he got out of the rough about a foot into the fairway.

Seems wrong to me.  A golfer could legally carry 12 clubs, a normal putter, and a 25 foot long putter used to measure drops.  It seems like the putter shouldn't be allowed to be the measuring club.

[Martyn W]

49 minutes ago, SG11118 said:

 

Seems wrong to me.  A golfer could legally carry 12 clubs, a normal putter, and a 25 foot long putter used to measure drops.  It seems like the putter shouldn't be allowed to be the measuring club.

As rarely as it may be an advantage, I think the trade-off of only having thirteen clubs to use hardly seems worth it.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, SG11118 said:

Seems wrong to me.  A golfer could legally carry 12 clubs, a normal putter, and a 25 foot long putter used to measure drops.  It seems like the putter shouldn't be allowed to be the measuring club.

Except where are you going to find a 25' long putter than conforms to the rules of golf?  I can't imagine that a putter that is 25' long exists and has been approved by the usga.  And I don't think you would be able to justify calling it a club, if its only purpose is to measure drops.  Note this portion of the Appendix II, specifically the parts I highlighted in red.

Quote

Appendix II - Design of Clubs

A player in doubt as to the conformity of a club should consult the USGA.

A manufacturer should submit to the USGA a sample of a club to be manufactured for a ruling as to whether the club conforms with the Rules. The sample becomes the property of the USGA for reference purposes. If a manufacturer fails to submit a sample or, having submitted a sample, fails to await a ruling before manufacturing and/or marketing the club, the manufacturer assumes the risk of a ruling that the club does not conform with the Rules.

The following paragraphs prescribe general regulations for the design of clubs, together with specifications and interpretations. Further information relating to these regulations and their proper interpretation is provided in "A Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls."

Where a club, or part of a club, is required to meet a specification within the Rules, it must be designed and manufactured with the intention of meeting that specification.

1. Clubs

a. General

A club is an implement designed to be used for striking the ball and generally comes in three forms: woods, irons and putters distinguished by shape and intended use. A putter is a club with a loft not exceeding ten degrees designed primarily for use on the putting green

At the very least, to get around that, this unscrupulous person would have to actually putt with the 25' putter.

24 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

As rarely as it may be an advantage, I think the trade-off of only having thirteen clubs to use hardly seems worth it.

This as well.

[SG11118]

19 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

At the very least, to get around that, this unscrupulous person would have to actually putt with the 25' putter.

I think you could probably design a 25' putter and putting stroke where you could make tap-ins.  You do make valid points though.  A player could face scrutiny for trying to pull a stunt like this.

19 hours ago, Martyn W said:

As rarely as it may be an advantage, I think the trade-off of only having thirteen clubs to use hardly seems worth it.

Maybe.  It may take re-designing the club lofts in the set to have a slightly larger angle differential between clubs, or forgoing a wedge or longer club option that doesn't get used much.

I guess my point is that a club that doesn't have a maximum length limitation (putter) shouldn't be able to be used as the measuring device.  Using a club length as a measurement tool is obviously a simplification made early in the golf rules development that has stayed through the years.  The only reason that a hard dimension wasn't chosen was likely just to keep people from having to carry a separate uniform measuring device.  Club lengths were approximately the same for everyone at the time.  It was out of the realm of conscience that some day someone might be putting with a 72 inch long putter and thereby gaining an advantage on drops.  As Martyn stated, this advantage isn't going to happen very often.  However it seems like a simple change to say that the measuring club can't be a putter.

This post no longer has anything to do with David Frost's denied drop.  Sorry all.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, SG11118 said:

I guess my point is that a club that doesn't have a maximum length limitation (putter) shouldn't be able to be used as the measuring device.

Again, practicality makes this a non-issue in the eyes of most.

A 25' putter would never be ruled legal equipment.

[curitiba]

Was told at a Rules Clinic that this Rules Official in question never returned to Reffing.  It was his first and his last.  Good job Mr. Frost!