Kaepernick Sits for National Anthem

[newtogolf]

6 minutes ago, Elmer said:

 

You are basically reinforcing the argument against the confederate flag!!!
Both Flags are basically just cloth, that represents an idea.
And that Idea stands for something.

You don't get to salute a symbol of freedom while decrying someone for exercising their right to freedom.

especially when you consider that the person protesting, was just a 100 years ago considered a second class citizen by the government of that flag!

Reminds me of one of my favorite movie quotes:
" President Andrew Shepherd: For the last couple of months, Senator Rumson has suggested that being president of this country was, to a certain extent, about character, and although I have not been willing to engage in his attacks on me, I've been here three years and three days, and I can tell you without hesitation: Being President of this country is entirely about character. For the record: yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But the more important question is why aren't you, Bob? Now, this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: Why would a senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? If you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free". I've known Bob Rumson for years, and I've been operating under the assumption that the reason Bob devotes so much time and energy to shouting at the rain was that he simply didn't get it. Well, I was wrong. Bob's problem isn't that he doesn't get it. Bob's problem is that he can't sell it! We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle-aged, middle-class, middle-income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values and character. And wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and you scream about patriotism and you tell them, she's to blame for their lot in life, and you go on television and you call her a *****. Sydney Ellen Wade has done nothing to you, Bob. She has done nothing but put herself through school, represent the interests of public school teachers, and lobby for the safety of our natural resources. You want a character debate, Bob? You better stick with me, 'cause Sydney Ellen Wade is way out of your league.  "

Very fair points @Elmer but hasn't the  Federal Government stepped in and banned the Confederate flag from being displayed in all government buildings (state and federal) and encouraged retailers to cease the sales of it?  

 

[14ledo81]

3 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Umm....yeah....the "impact" of seeing some athlete sit during the anthem most be horrifying. Gimmie a break, there's a lot of bad shit going on in the world and people just don't want to talk about it because it interferes with their ability to blissfully ignore it all. Then when someone, anyone, raises the issues they're labeled as unpatriotic - love it or leave it!!!! - and everybody smirks and says, "oh, that'll cost him some sponsors"

I can make a list a mile long of all the horrible shit that is happening to the world - not just the USA - and watching football doesn't fix any of it. So kudus to all the football players - more and more - who are using their celebrity to raise the topics, in this case BLM, but it's certainly not the only issue that needs to be addressed. 

 

Once again, raising the issues is not the problem with me.  It is the way he is going about it.

Using the marriage analogy, this is how I see it.  Lets say your wife is disciplining your children much harsher than you think should be.  You would not tell your wife, "Honey, I can no longer support our marriage."  More than likely you would say, "Honey, I love and support you completely, and hope we have a long happy marriage.  But, we have an issue that means a lot to me, and I believe we need to work on it.  Lets come up with some solution."  Not the greatest analogy, but the best I could come up with.

Maybe some view this as ridiculous, but it is how I see it.  Don't expect everybody to agree, but at least be able to see why I feel the way I do.

 

 

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yep. Nor will I waste my time trying to figure out anyone with a ridiculous viewpoint.

So, if the viewpoint does not match yours, it is ridiculous?  That's kind of harsh, isn't it?

Maybe you meant you will not waste time trying to figure out anyone with a viewpoint that you think is ridiculous...

[newtogolf]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yep. Nor will I waste my time trying to figure out anyone with a ridiculous viewpoint.

I didn't say it was. It's just a data point. And a different point of view.

But I'm sure you stand and put your hand over your heart and remove your hat every time you hear the national anthem. And I'm sure you honor and obey the flag code. And I'm sure you stop every time you see a flag being displayed improperly… Yeah?

It's a symbol. It's a "thing," it's not "the thing."

That's all he's ever said on the topic? That's it - the entirety? C'mon…

Huh?

I'm going to have to assume you are not suggesting that Obama is 100% proof positive that there is no oppression at all in this country.

So are you suggesting that to protest one thing, he has to protest all other things, too? Or else, what, he's a hypocrite? What?

Maybe he doesn't want to protest or talk about a bunch of black gang bangers killing each other over drug territories, but does care about white police officers killing an inordinate number of black people without justifiable cause. (Or whatever it is he's protesting… not that you seem to know… ).

What's that got to do with anything? Nobody's said anything about due process here (that I know).

You're missing the point that he doesn't have to be!

Let's start applying this bizarre standard to you. Henceforth, any time you claim to be upset or bothered about something, we're going to ask you for your position on every other topic, or at least ten or twenty randomly chosen ones, and if you can't show that you've done things to raise public awareness about those things, we're going to completely disregard your original post.

I don't stand in my home when the when the National Anthem is played, except in rare instances like the Super Bowl or when a real celebrity was singing the National Anthem broadcast television didn't even bother to show the National Anthem, it's just now that it's being used for protest reasons it's being aired and covered so much.  

When I'm at a game or public event when it's played, I stand with hand over heart.  

If you're aware of more details about the reason for his protest I'll be happy to review them.  Until then he seems to be in line with BLM which is singling out LEO and some members of BLM are calling for violence against LEO.  Last night a guy in Arizona attempted to kill 3 police officers at a gas station by running them over in his car.  

Would everyone that's supportive of CK protesting also support white football players who knelt or did some other (non-offensive) gesture in protest against BLM?  

[Ernest Jones]

2 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

Using the marriage analogy, this is how I see it.  Lets say your wife is disciplining your children much harsher than you think should be.  You would not tell your wife, "Honey, I can no longer support our marriage."  More than likely you would say, "Honey, I love and support you completely, and hope we have a long happy marriage.  But, we have an issue that means a lot to me, and I believe we need to work on it.  Lets come up with some solution."  Not the greatest analogy, but the best I could come up with.

What if the wife just keeps watching football?

 

[wannabe]

23 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Would those actors make more people aware of their issue by wearing a random color ribbon instead of saying something?  Of course not.

Same with Kaep.  The reason people suggest he should have done something differently is just so it would make them easier to ignore what he has to say.  It would be considerably less effective.

Thank you for reading my mind.

[Elmer]

18 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Very fair points @Elmer but hasn't the  Federal Government stepped in and banned the Confederate flag from being displayed in all government buildings (state and federal) and encouraged retailers to cease the sales of it?  

 

The Fed Govt has ceased hang the flag in federal buildings, but I am not sure how many Federal buildings it hung in prior to this. I believe the HOR passed a bill to have the confederate flag no longer placed or displayed in Arlington Cemetery.
State Govt's have had to remove the Confederate flag from their own buildings. I believe many have, can not comment on all.
I know there is some clown that works in the building next to me. He displays the 2 big flags from his truck, a red Marine flag & confederate flag.
Remember I live in Upstate NY, where the Confederate flag is nothing but a tool for people to out themselves as clowns!
There is little heritage for the confederate flag in these parts, with exceptions of "upstate rednecks".
But really, can you be a red neck if you live 10 minutes from the 'burbs!!!!!

 

6 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I don't stand in my home when the when the National Anthem is played, except in rare instances like the Super Bowl or when a real celebrity was singing the National Anthem broadcast television didn't even bother to show the National Anthem, it's just now that it's being used for protest reasons it's being aired and covered so much.  

When I'm at a game or public event when it's played, I stand with hand over heart.  

 

So here is the thing I dont get.
Why is it such a must to stand for the anthem at a game, but not at home?
And why can we stand sometimes at home but we pick and chose when?
You can disagree with KC's reason for protest, you can disagree with his method of protest.
However I have always found the logic of
"if you dont stand you are offending the military"
"If you dont stand you are being disrespectful" 

Should we assume that the "respect" is only shown in public?
Should we all become pavlov's dog and stand when the anthem is played no matter where we are?

By not standing for the anthem at home are you not "disrespecting" some military member someplace?

[colin007]

19 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Without those reminders, most of the country would never see or participate in any real patriotic ritual throughout most of their post school lives.

"Ritual". i think therein lies the issue that many see with the NA being played.  it comes across as a mindless ritual (for many, not all obviously) as was the Pledge when we went to school. some people stop and think about what they are participating in and decide not to anymore.

[14ledo81]

43 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

What if the wife just keeps watching football?

 

 

Touche'.....

I suppose eventually one would have to decide the issue has become big enough to terminate the marriage.

 

22 minutes ago, Elmer said:

The Fed Govt has ceased hang the flag in federal buildings, but I am not sure how many Federal buildings it hung in prior to this. I believe the HOR passed a bill to have the confederate flag no longer placed or displayed in Arlington Cemetery.
State Govt's have had to remove the Confederate flag from their own buildings. I believe many have, can not comment on all.
I know there is some clown that works in the building next to me. He displays the 2 big flags from his truck, a red Marine flag & confederate flag.
Remember I live in Upstate NY, where the Confederate flag is nothing but a tool for people to out themselves as clowns!
There is little heritage for the confederate flag in these parts, with exceptions of "upstate rednecks".
But really, can you be a red neck if you live 10 minutes from the 'burbs!!!!!

 

So here is the thing I dont get.
Why is it such a must to stand for the anthem at a game, but not at home?
And why can we stand sometimes at home but we pick and chose when?
You can disagree with KC's reason for protest, you can disagree with his method of protest.
However I have always found the logic of
"if you dont stand you are offending the military"
"If you dont stand you are being disrespectful" 

Should we assume that the "respect" is only shown in public?
Should we all become pavlov's dog and stand when the anthem is played no matter where we are?

By not standing for the anthem at home are you not "disrespecting" some military member someplace?

 

It is kind of hard to disrespect someone when they (nobody) can see it.

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

So, if the viewpoint does not match yours, it is ridiculous?  That's kind of harsh, isn't it?

Ah, you thought you caught me in something… eh?

Thing is… I didn't say anything like that. I didn't deem it ridiculous because it disagrees with me. I deemed it ridiculous because it's ridiculous.

49 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

Maybe you meant you will not waste time trying to figure out anyone with a viewpoint that you think is ridiculous...

I'm not claiming to be the arbiter of what is or isn't ridiculous, but some things are so far across the line most reasonable people would rank it as ridiculous.

Someone claiming that CK was calling me a racist in his actions is, what I think, something most reasonable people would call ridiculous.

45 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I don't stand in my home when the when the National Anthem is played…

So you're clearly protesting everything wrong in the world, then, yes? Because you have to protest them all, or you're not allowed to protest anything.

45 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

If you're aware of more details about the reason for his protest I'll be happy to review them.

Look them up yourself. He's said more than you've quoted.

45 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Last night a guy in Arizona attempted to kill 3 police officers at a gas station by running them over in his car.

Attempted deflections are easily ignored.

45 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Would everyone that's supportive of CK protesting also support white football players who knelt or did some other (non-offensive) gesture in protest against BLM?  

I would completely support their right to do it. Just as I support CK's.

You really have no idea where I stand on BLM. I don't even know if I know.

But I support a guy's right to protest. Could he have done it differently? More efficiently or effectively? Maybe. But that's the way he chose to do it.

I do not agree with the idea that a protest must be in the form approved by those who disagree with what he's protesting. I do not agree that to protest A, you also have to protest B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I… I do not agree that if you think the U.S. has one problem, and you don't like it, that you should get out of the country or live with it passively. I do not agree that a symbol is worth a trillionth that which it represents.

22 minutes ago, colin007 said:

"Ritual". i think therein lies the issue that many see with the NA being played.  it comes across as a mindless ritual (for many, not all obviously) as was the Pledge when we went to school. some people stop and think about what they are participating in and decide not to anymore.

It is.

Once I was of a certain age, I stopped saying "under God" in the pledge. I wasn't protesting anything. I did lobby to have it removed from our money in an article in the school paper once…

Rituals change in meaning.

I'd rather have someone respect the actual things rather than make a show of respecting a symbol of those things.

[14ledo81]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Ah, you thought you caught me in something… eh?

 

No. Definitely not trying to "catch" anyone in anything.  Just trying to error on the side of "nice".

 

[Groucho Valentine]

I wonder if any of the US Ryder cuppers are going to kneel during the national anthem. Thats what we really should be losing sleep over. 

[Elmer]

41 minutes ago, colin007 said:

"Ritual". i think therein lies the issue that many see with the NA being played.  it comes across as a mindless ritual (for many, not all obviously) as was the Pledge when we went to school. some people stop and think about what they are participating in and decide not to anymore.

I stopped doing the pledge in High school. Especially after I found out the history behind it.
Now I feel it is better to learn to love the country and join the ritual than blindly follow!

23 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

 

Touche'.....

I suppose eventually one would have to decide the issue has become big enough to terminate the marriage.

 

 

It is kind of hard to disrespect someone when they (nobody) can see it.

 

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

Would everyone that's supportive of CK protesting also support white football players who knelt or did some other (non-offensive) gesture in protest against BLM?  

Well, I obviously cannot speak for "everybody" but it is my strong contention that most would, AND many who are not in support of Kaepernick would be in support of a white player.

If you don't think there is a racism component to many of the reactions to this, then you're nuts.

 

13 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

So you have never been offended unintentionally before??  

Sure, but that's not what's happening here.  Being unintentionally offended would involve some amount of misunderstanding.  You are fully admitting that is not the case and then choosing to be offended anyway.  That's intentional and in one way or another, it's disingenuous.

[Fourputt]

5 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Umm....yeah....the "impact" of seeing some athlete sit during the anthem most be horrifying. Gimmie a break, there's a lot of bad shit going on in the world and people just don't want to talk about it because it interferes with their ability to blissfully ignore it all. Then when someone, anyone, raises the issues they're labeled as unpatriotic - love it or leave it!!!! - and everybody smirks and says, "oh, that'll cost him some sponsors"

I can make a list a mile long of all the horrible shit that is happening to the world - not just the USA - and watching football doesn't fix any of it. So kudus to all the football players - more and more - who are using their celebrity to raise the topics, in this case BLM, but it's certainly not the only issue that needs to be addressed. 

 

Neither does sitting out the anthem.  I'd tender the opinion that the only people who actually support their actions are those who already lean that way, and it further alienates those who they are trying to convert.  

1 hour ago, Elmer said:

The Fed Govt has ceased hang the flag in federal buildings, but I am not sure how many Federal buildings it hung in prior to this. I believe the HOR passed a bill to have the confederate flag no longer placed or displayed in Arlington Cemetery.
State Govt's have had to remove the Confederate flag from their own buildings. I believe many have, can not comment on all.
I know there is some clown that works in the building next to me. He displays the 2 big flags from his truck, a red Marine flag & confederate flag.
Remember I live in Upstate NY, where the Confederate flag is nothing but a tool for people to out themselves as clowns!
There is little heritage for the confederate flag in these parts, with exceptions of "upstate rednecks".
But really, can you be a red neck if you live 10 minutes from the 'burbs!!!!!

 

The thing is that you don't have to be a redneck to be a racist.  The confederate flag represents overt racism to most people.  Also racism crosses racial boundaries.  There is at least as much anti-white feeling from blacks as there is anti-black from whites.  In fact these days the outspoken anti-white racism may be more prevalent that any overt anti-black.  

I can't speak for what people feel inside, but it has become politically incorrect for whites to show any sort of bias, while it seems okay for blacks to do it.  I dare say that it must happen that minority cops shoot white offenders, yet we don't have any protests about that.  

It's only when the white cop uses his weapon against a non-white suspect (and most of the time their actions are upheld) that it makes news.  Since a disproportionate percentage of criminals are from minority groups, isn't in logical to assume that there would be a disproportionate percentage of confrontations between cops in general and persons of color?  In reality a Harvard study found just the opposite is true.  The professor who made the study was expecting it to support the Black Lives Matter movement, instead it showed that police fired their weapons at unarmed whites more often than they did at blacks. (Article)  He did find however that minorities are more likely to be stopped or detained by police. (2nd article).  

And another interesting article on the subject.  

No matter my feelings on CK's actions, I in no way condone improper use of deadly force by police or anyone else.  I acknowledge that the police sometimes have to make split-second decisions in moments of crisis and that tragic mistakes can happen.  According to the studies linked above, those mistakes can occur with suspects of all races, without any apparent bias.

[14ledo81]

35 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Well, I obviously cannot speak for "everybody" but it is my strong contention that most would, AND many who are not in support of Kaepernick would be in support of a white player.

If you don't think there is a racism component to many of the reactions to this, then you're nuts.

 

How is this ^^^^^, much different from this vvvvvv.....?

 

On 8/29/2016 at 1:39 PM, Gunther said:

 

Listen, if Jason Witten did the same to protest Obama's support of Planned Parenthood's illegal harvesting of fetus parts or his support of BLM killing cops, or the Supreme Court legalizing gay marriage, you who now support this action would vociferously oppose it.  I would still oppose it because of the disrespect shown to the country by a multi-millionaire, although I'd be a little less outraged because the motivation would be just in my mind.  

 

On 8/29/2016 at 1:53 PM, Golfingdad said:

 

Absolutely, 100% dead wrong.

 

---

 

35 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Sure, but that's not what's happening here.  Being unintentionally offended would involve some amount of misunderstanding.  You are fully admitting that is not the case and then choosing to be offended anyway.  That's intentional and in one way or another, it's disingenuous.

 

I am fully admitting that he may not have realized the extent of how many people he is disrespecting.  Ignorance of that does not make it ok to me.  Not when he does it on a national level.

The longer this continues, the less I will give him the benefit of the doubt though.  At some point, he has to realize how much offense he is causing.

[Golfingdad]

8 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

How is this ^^^^^, much different from this vvvvvv.....?

?????  I don't understand.

@Gunther opined that those of us who support Kaepernicks right to sit would "vociferously oppose" Jason Witten's right to sit.  I said no, you're wrong; we would absolutely support him, as we support Kaep.  Then @newtogolf asked if everyone that's supportive of CK protesting would also support white football players who knelt in protest, and I said yes, we would.

Remember, the support of the action has nothing to do with the action.  I used to, often times, sign a petition outside my local Target or grocery store to get something on the state ballot without knowing or caring what the issue was.  I supported it's right to be voted on and our right to make those decisions.  (I say "used to" because ever since Prop 8, I've realized there are too many dumb jerks out there so I stopped helping them)

[Spanky]

On 8/28/2016 at 8:29 PM, 14ledo81 said:

Curious what everybody thinks of this.

I support his right to do so.  

A couple of things though. 

  1) Could he have picked a better way to voice his point that is not a slap in the face to all those that have served and/or died for the flag?

2) If he can't support the US of A, maybe he should become a citizen of a different country?

He is not attacking americans who are defending our rights and freedoms at all for one. Secondly america was built on and by inclusiveness. So when a man stands up, or sits to point the obvious racial tension that exists today, he is doing what he can to help effect change for the better so I say he stays!

[14ledo81]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

?????  I don't understand.

@Gunther opined that those of us who support Kaepernicks right to sit would "vociferously oppose" Jason Witten's right to sit.  I said no, you're wrong; we would absolutely support him, as we support Kaep.  Then @newtogolf asked if everyone that's supportive of CK protesting would also support white football players who knelt in protest, and I said yes, we would.

Remember, the support of the action has nothing to do with the action.  I used to, often times, sign a petition outside my local Target or grocery store to get something on the state ballot without knowing or caring what the issue was.  I supported it's right to be voted on and our right to make those decisions.  (I say "used to" because ever since Prop 8, I've realized there are too many dumb jerks out there so I stopped helping them)

I see.

I took it to mean you were saying people were against Kaep's "actions" because of his "cause".

That has never been my stance.  I don't care what his cause is, I still don't like the action.