Nicklaus as an architect

[TryingtoPlay]

I am interested in hearing people's general opinions on Jack Nicklaus designed courses and in Nicklaus as an architect. Personally, I have not always loved his layouts, but he has designed courses that I do also like alot. I am particularly fond of Valhalla which I find to be a beautiful layout and an absolutely outstanding test. He has designed a fair number of courses that I am not enamored with though. I am judging his courses both on those I have played and those that have hosted tournaments.

[Club Rat]

I've played several of Jack's gems, and thoroughly enjoy every round. I typically use every club in the bag and usually need to play shots which require a higher level of skill than most player can imagine. Meaning, his courses require precision approaches to tiny target greens which only hold crisp shots.

In general, he's usually generous with tee shots, but wayward shots usually require a re-tee. Once in a fairway one will seldom have a level stance. Approaching most greens, requires shots to certain areas for safe play and there's areas where a player can bail-out or a good miss and not be in situations which typically lead to difficult up and downs. Many missed greens result in bogey or worse for even low handicappers.

His greens are very subtle and difficult to read. He likes faster green speeds which create very subtle changes until the ball speed reaches a point that it will take the break and often it more or less than a play reads. His greens will have front and back pin positions which are usually very difficult to attack. Even middle pin positions have side areas which are difficult to attack.

His courses are a good challenge for golfers of all abilities and from each teeing area a player chooses to play.

Several of his courses I have enjoyed are Bears Best, Las Vegas, Breckenridge Golf Club, Co. Porta Cima, Mo. and presently Winghaven CC, Mo. I've played several others, but it would require me to visit my 'memory bank' to recall the names.

[WUTiger]

On 10/10/2016 at 3:06 PM, Club Rat said:

...I typically use every club in the bag and usually need to play shots which require a higher level of skill than most player can imagine. Meaning, his courses require precision approaches to tiny target greens which only hold crisp shots. ...

I have played two Nicklaus layouts, one which is my home course.

The "higher level of skill" is on target. I looked at my last 20 rounds used for HDCP, and eight of the low 10 HDCP differentials were at away courses, which I have played only once or twice.

I seem to have a home course disadvantage. 

[Hacker James]

I have not played it yet, but in Summerlin Nevada, there is "Bear's Best" which supposedly is a montage of favorite Nicklaus courses. 

[Gunther]

He's great.  He designed the course at which I'm a member, Rock Creek on Lake Texoma.  Terrific layout.  He likes to use visual deception, there are a number of holes where visually it appears there are greenside bunkers but in reality they might be 20-40 yards from the green.

It's the best course I've played in Texas.

[Patch]

24 minutes ago, Hacker James said:

I have not played it yet, but in Summerlin Nevada, there is "Bear's Best" which supposedly is a montage of favorite Nicklaus courses. 

I've played Bears Best several times over the years. Nice course that never gets old. Always something different showing up when played.

There's another one of his courses north of Vegas called Coyote Springs. It's not too bad if you don't mind a 50+/- drive out there. 

[Hacker James]

@patch Hmmm, interesting. I used to ride not far from there on motorcycle when I followed the Walker River from Carson City. When I got to Tonopah, I headed South through Goldfield and Beatty. On another ride, I rode up through Mesquite into Utah to Bryce Canyon and Zion National parks. ET highway where I picked up a "non-physical" being on pillion, but that's another story....

[saevel25]

I never liked his courses. 

[dave s]

Played several Jack Nicklaus design courses.  I really enjoyed playing them and played well for the most part. What I think his designs do best is:

1. present players of all skill levels and driving distances tee boxes that set up a player with a reasonable chance at a good score.

2. Reward good shots but not over-penalize not-so-good shots.

3. Make a straight hole pleasing to the eye.

4. Provide landing area targets from tee boxes that are obvious if you look for them.

5. Leave most of the course directly in front of you.  What you see is pretty much what you get on a Nicklaus course.  He doesn't try to 'fool' anybody.

I can think of 5 Nicklaus courses played in the past 0-10 years. Most recently, (September 2016) Grand Bear in Saucier, MS.  Enjoyed playing all of them, scored well and walked off feeling like I had a chance at a really good score.

dave

[MSchott]

I've played a few over the years including Glen Abbey. He tends to build courses that fit his game. This leads to the need for accurate approach shots to greens that are often wide but narrow front to back. He is famous for how high he could hit his irons which works on this type of green. Think 12 at Augusta. These are not hard and fast rules about his style but more about what influenced his thinking. Like many architects he has changed over the years. Look back to his work with Pete Dye at Harbortown to his more recent work with Tom Doak at Sebonack on Long Island. Glen Abbey and of course Muirfield Village are his two most iconic courses. 

[CarlSpackler]

Nicholas courses are mean and evil. I love them. 

[WUTiger]

On 10/12/2016 at 8:37 AM, dave s said:

.. 2. Reward good shots but not over-penalize not-so-good shots. ...

Nicklaus courses can end up in a bind if the owner doesn't have the $$ for maintenance. Our course has rebuilt or reshaped several of the more exotic bunkers, or removed them (with Jack's OK). Supposedly Nicklaus cautioned our course's developer to minimize the exotic sandboxes - hillside, or sand splashed at 45* angle - but got ignored.

[CarlSpackler]

On 10/14/2016 at 4:40 PM, CarlSpackler said:

Nicholas courses are mean and evil. I love them. 

First I want to make a public apology for butchering Mr. Nicklaus' name. 

5 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

Nicklaus courses can end up in a bind if the owner doesn't have the $$ for maintenance. Our course has rebuilt or reshaped several of the more exotic bunkers, or removed them (with Jack's OK). Supposedly Nicklaus cautioned our course's developer to minimize the exotic sandboxes - hillside, or sand splashed at 45* angle - but got ignored.

This happened to The Grizzly course in Mason, OH. I was excited to play it last summer, but it was a piece of crap. It was still a nice layout, but the condition was not good at all. 

[dave s]

1 hour ago, CarlSpackler said:

First I want to make a public apology for butchering Mr. Nicklaus' name. 

This happened to The Grizzly course in Mason, OH. I was excited to play it last summer, but it was a piece of crap. It was still a nice layout, but the condition was not good at all. 

Boy, that's too bad about that Grizzly down in Mason.  I guess the guy can design and build a course, but he's certainly not going to hang around and maintain it, too.  There are two up north in Ohio that I've played: Glenmoor CC in Canton and Barrington in Aurora.  Both were in spectacular shape.  Also have played all 5 nines at Grand Cypress in Orlando. Top-notch all the way around.

Grand Bear in Saucier, MS was lush and in near-perfect condition about a month ago when I was there.  You can tell when things are starting to get dicey because all pins are up in the front 3rd of the green.  Grand Bear had them up front.

Have never had a bad experience at a course that Jack built.  Guess I'm just lucky.

dave

[CarlSpackler]

22 minutes ago, dave s said:

Boy, that's too bad about that Grizzly down in Mason.  I guess the guy can design and build a course, but he's certainly not going to hang around and maintain it, too.  There are two up north in Ohio that I've played: Glenmoor CC in Canton and Barrington in Aurora.  Both were in spectacular shape.  Also have played all 5 nines at Grand Cypress in Orlando. Top-notch all the way around.

Grand Bear in Saucier, MS was lush and in near-perfect condition about a month ago when I was there.  You can tell when things are starting to get dicey because all pins are up in the front 3rd of the green.  Grand Bear had them up front.

Have never had a bad experience at a course that Jack built.  Guess I'm just lucky.

dave

Rumor is that he wanted his name removed from the Grizzly. 

[WUTiger]

6 hours ago, dave s said:

Have never had a bad experience at a course that Jack built.  Guess I'm just lucky.

Jack and other golf design gurus always tell developers to decide what the audience for their course will be.

The original developer had visions of Winged Foot Way Out West. We had four residential developments peddling upscale golf in the area circa 1998. But, not everyone wanted to spend $300K (back then) for a house on the golf course. He did not get the volume of residential high-rollers he planned on.

The course had three fairly even local competitors, and it was rough to get enough revenue to do the maintenance on the adventurous trapping and other exotica. The original developer is long gone from the course.

Our greens crew is hardworking and smart, but they have faced real challenges to keep thing playable.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 10/17/2016 at 11:39 PM, WUTiger said:

Jack and other golf design gurus always tell developers to decide what the audience for their course will be.

The original developer had visions of Winged Foot Way Out West. We had four residential developments peddling upscale golf in the area circa 1998. But, not everyone wanted to spend $300K (back then) for a house on the golf course. He did not get the volume of residential high-rollers he planned on.

The course had three fairly even local competitors, and it was rough to get enough revenue to do the maintenance on the adventurous trapping and other exotica. The original developer is long gone from the course.

Our greens crew is hardworking and smart, but they have faced real challenges to keep thing playable.

That's not surprising. It's been reported in a number of places that Muirfield Village itself was on the verge of going broke in the early days!

[dove694]

I have played two of them and had two very different experiences. Old Works in Anaconda, MT was a joy to play. I played it several years ago so I don't remember too many specifics, but I do recall really enjoying the layout of the course and my playing partners also raved. The Idaho Club in Sandpoint, ID, however was nothing short of goofy. It was a decent small-town public course called Hidden Lakes at one point, until Nicklaus was brought in by a wealthy developer to redesign it. The result was a course that was virtually unplayable because of how difficult it was. The greens were absolutely ridiculous (4-putt city). I believe it has been closed down in recent years, and I understand why. You'd be hard pressed to find many golfers that enjoy inflicting that type of punishment on themselves.

 

I have played a few Arnold Palmer tracks as well, and his seem to be a lot more player-friendly than Nicklaus' courses. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by dove694