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RussUK

"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

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Yep. Watched several of his videos on youtube, and one of them was him demonstrating the 3 different setups, and swings.

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36 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

Yep. Watched several of his videos on youtube, and one of them was him demonstrating the 3 different setups, and swings.

Link? Don’t think that’s the case. He’ll teach sized swings, like a size ten 7i for me goes 140y where a size 8 goes (need to check my card but ~) 125y. He’ll also teach fades, cuts, and sand, but it’s all the exact same swing.

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2 minutes ago, Robos said:

He’ll also teach fades, cuts, and sand, but it’s all the exact same swing.

This is overly generalized.  To hit a a functional fade, a player must have a face that is open to the path on which he is swinging.  For a righty, this is typically done swinging a little left with a slightly open face relative to that path in order to fade it back to the target.  Conversely, to hit a functional draw, the player must have a face that is close to the path on which he is swinging.  For a righty, this is typically done swinging a little right with a slightly closed face relative to that path in order to draw it back to the target.  Bunker shots, at least green side bunker shots, typically utilize an open face and using the bounce of the club to glide through the sand, splashing sand and the ball onto the green.  None of these are the same swing.  You could argue that the fade and draw are, on a macro level, very similar with respect to the basic movements, but they are not the same.  

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40 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

This is overly generalized.  To hit a a functional fade, a player must have a face that is open to the path on which he is swinging.  For a righty, this is typically done swinging a little left with a slightly open face relative to that path in order to fade it back to the target.  Conversely, to hit a functional draw, the player must have a face that is close to the path on which he is swinging.  For a righty, this is typically done swinging a little right with a slightly closed face relative to that path in order to draw it back to the target.  Bunker shots, at least green side bunker shots, typically utilize an open face and using the bounce of the club to glide through the sand, splashing sand and the ball onto the green.  None of these are the same swing.  You could argue that the fade and draw are, on a macro level, very similar with respect to the basic movements, but they are not the same.  

He teaches the same swing in that there remains no weight shift, no rotation on the backswing. The swing works well for me on long/fairway bunker shots as I make solid contact and only have to adjust ball position. Green side bunkers I just play as I’ve learned from Mike. 
 

Unfortunately you have to join his school to get more information...which was still quite lacking in that there’s no data or monitor used nor is there anything on hitting driver other than a slow-mo clip and him saying ‘stay still.’ I bailed on it as although his personal video analysis was helpful, I wanted more on the long game.

Edited by Vinsk

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7 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Unfortunately you have to join his school to get more information...which was still quite lacking in that there’s no data or monitor used nor is there anything on hitting driver other than a slow-mo clip and him saying ‘stay still.’ I bailed on it as although his personal video analysis was helpful, I wanted more on the long game.

What are you looking for on the data/monitor side? Ball spin rates for around the green or something?

Also, what more are you looking for on the long game? It’s very simple, hit the driver the same as everything else except move the ball more forward in your stance - tho you can play around with ball position.

If you’re like me at all, I was always searching for something more complex with the swing, but nope, what he teaches is really is as simple as it seems.

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@Vinsk side question - when you do the JV setup, weight on your lead foot, can you possibly hit it fat? For me, the club can hit the ground a foot behind the ball if my wrists break early. Not that it happens in the swing, but it certainly can physically. Wanted to know if it’s just me and others can’t physically do it. My question make sense?

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2 hours ago, Robos said:

@Vinsk side question - when you do the JV setup, weight on your lead foot, can you possibly hit it fat? For me, the club can hit the ground a foot behind the ball if my wrists break early. Not that it happens in the swing, but it certainly can physically. Wanted to know if it’s just me and others can’t physically do it. My question make sense?

You can definitely hit the ball fat with your weight on your front foot at setup. There are many ways to do this; dumping the wrist angles is one way. You can also extend the arms too early, tip your upper body back during the downswing, or reverse shift and end up on your back foot. Lots of ways to hit the ball fat and having the weight on the front foot at setup is not a magic cure for it.

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3 hours ago, Robos said:

@Vinsk side question - when you do the JV setup, weight on your lead foot, can you possibly hit it fat? For me, the club can hit the ground a foot behind the ball if my wrists break early. Not that it happens in the swing, but it certainly can physically. Wanted to know if it’s just me and others can’t physically do it. My question make sense?

That’s an example of what frustrates me with Jim. He says ‘ it’s easy to analyze your errors. If you hit it fat...you must’ve shifted your weight back. You can’t hit the ball fat fat with your weight forward.’ That is 100% wrong as @billchao explained.

Why the monitor? Because JV clearly states ‘ this is not just a swing for high handicappers or physically disabled, it’s a swing for the elite players as well.’

Ok. Now with this along with Jim saying he swings his driver at 118mph and hits his 9i 150yds...I wanna see the proof. He also states hitting up on the driver is wrong because all you have to do to lower spin is to shallow your path which his set up does.

He’s wrong telling high handicap golfers to hit down with their driver. They will lose distance unless they generate pro level SS, which he claims one can with his swing.

He’s also never posted any verified scores. If he was really gonna bring this swing to the mainstream he’d have a podcast or a discussion with known swing gurus and disprove them all. His constant claims that the traditional method isn’t the best way to generate speed/power and that all these pros and instructors are wrong is disingenuous at best. If you’re gonna make these claims you should be able to prove it.

He’s a nice guy but he has a bit of an edge with traditional golf in everything. That’s why he wears t-shirts and chuck taylor shoes, which is fine,  but it goes along with his ‘rebellious’ nature to go against the grain. Which is also just fine but I don’t like that he gets defensive and makes snarky comments ( like he did to @iacas) rather than engage in a professional discussion about physics and the mechanics of a golf swing.

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10 hours ago, Vinsk said:

That’s an example of what frustrates me with Jim. He says ‘ it’s easy to analyze your errors. If you hit it fat...you must’ve shifted your weight back. You can’t hit the ball fat fat with your weight forward.’ That is 100% wrong as @billchao explained.

Why the monitor? Because JV clearly states ‘ this is not just a swing for high handicappers or physically disabled, it’s a swing for the elite players as well.’

Ok. Now with this along with Jim saying he swings his driver at 118mph and hits his 9i 150yds...I wanna see the proof. He also states hitting up on the driver is wrong because all you have to do to lower spin is to shallow your path which his set up does.

He’s wrong telling high handicap golfers to hit down with their driver. They will lose distance unless they generate pro level SS, which he claims one can with his swing.

He’s also never posted any verified scores. If he was really gonna bring this swing to the mainstream he’d have a podcast or a discussion with known swing gurus and disprove them all. His constant claims that the traditional method isn’t the best way to generate speed/power and that all these pros and instructors are wrong is disingenuous at best. If you’re gonna make these claims you should be able to prove it.

He’s a nice guy but he has a bit of an edge with traditional golf in everything. That’s why he wears t-shirts and chuck taylor shoes, which is fine,  but it goes along with his ‘rebellious’ nature to go against the grain. Which is also just fine but I don’t like that he gets defensive and makes snarky comments ( like he did to @iacas) rather than engage in a professional discussion about physics and the mechanics of a golf swing.

He kicked me out of the academy because I argued the point that it’s physically possible for me to hit it fat. I was thinking that my setup was wrong but he took some type of offense and gave me the boot. Tho in fairness to him he reads a ton of emails, and my question was misinterpreted.

Even tho I have to finish learning the swing on my own, as an amateur I feel confident I can become scratch with the swing - which is my goal this season. So for me, and probably amateurs like me who use the swing, the proof is in the results, which I have a personal glimpse of. I have no idea if the swing is viable above hobby level.

Unless there is sufficient evidence for, skepticism that this swing can go to elite levels is warranted. 

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18 hours ago, Robos said:

Link? Don’t think that’s the case. He’ll teach sized swings, like a size ten 7i for me goes 140y where a size 8 goes (need to check my card but ~) 125y. He’ll also teach fades, cuts, and sand, but it’s all the exact same swing.

I don't know how to link. All I did was google Jim's swing and found 10-15 short video lessons from him. If that's to much trouble for you, then forget it. Also, you can definitely hit it fat with his swing. Out of curiosity from this thread, I found his videos, and tried it at the range. Hit it fat a few times. I think, because as a "rotational" swinger, I instinctively want to start the downswing with the "rotation" of the my body. With Jim's preload set up, by doing that my club would just dump straight to the ground. I only tried 20 or so swings. It was almost screwing up my own swing because I trying not to rotate, which is the exact opposite of every lesson I've had, my wife has had, or my (2) kids have had.

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8 minutes ago, TRUCKER said:

I don't know how to link. All I did was google Jim's swing and found 10-15 short video lessons from him. If that's to much trouble for you...

Not too much trouble, just that I’ve watched probably hundreds of his videos and was a student for 2+ yrs and I’m only aware of a single swing. Thought you might have stumbled on something new.

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1 hour ago, TRUCKER said:

Out of curiosity from this thread, I found his videos, and tried it at the range. Hit it fat a few times. I think, because as a "rotational" swinger, I instinctively want to start the downswing with the "rotation" of the my body.

I doubt that’s why you hit the ball fat with this method. It’s more likely that you’re doing something else to compensate for the setup. Jim himself rotates when demonstrating his swing and rotation alone will not drop the club head.

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He rotates after he hits the ball. Try keeping your body still like he does. It's not that easy. It goes against everything you want to do.

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Jim allows some rotation on the downswing as long as you remain closed at impact. His lower body is completely still on the backswing.

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22 hours ago, TRUCKER said:

I don't know how to link. All I did was google Jim's swing and found 10-15 short video lessons from him. If that's to much trouble for you, then forget it. 

:doh: Copy the website URL from the YouTube video and paste the link into a reply...

Not sure why you would expect someone to sift through a minimum of 10-15 videos just because you don't know how to copy/paste? You are the one who mentioned that there were some videos about a specific topic which contradicts people who have paid for and tried this swing are saying, so that means the burden of proof is on you to cite your source, not just tell someone else to look them up.

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On 2/23/2020 at 8:14 AM, Robos said:

He kicked me out of the academy because I argued the point that it’s physically possible for me to hit it fat.

If this is what happened it’s a poor reflection on Jim. If he wasn’t able to prove that hitting it fat with weight forward isn’t possible then it’s his failure, not yours. But he kinda rides on the cult-like attitude of ‘don’t question me...just stay with the program.’ Again..there’s a reason Jim hasn’t gone mainstream with this.

1 hour ago, klineka said:

:doh: Copy the website URL from the YouTube video and paste the link into a reply...

Not sure why you would expect someone to sift through a minimum of 10-15 videos just because you don't know how to copy/paste? You are the one who mentioned that there were some videos about a specific topic which contradicts people who have paid for and tried this swing are saying, so that means the burden of proof is on you to cite your source, not just tell someone else to look them up.

That’s solid.

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10 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

If this is what happened it’s a poor reflection on Jim. If he wasn’t able to prove that hitting it fat with weight forward isn’t possible then it’s his failure, not yours. But he kinda rides on the cult-like attitude of ‘don’t question me...just stay with the program.’ Again..there’s a reason Jim hasn’t gone mainstream with this.

Yea, don’t really understand his rationale. Tho yeah, I don’t think he has much of an appetite for defending his swing. What sucks is I’ve been trying to graduate for 2+ years and felt like I was really close, but I need to be able to make sense of things because that’s how I learn. So whatever, I’ll figure it out.

I’m still not sure if I should not be able to hit it fat. In theory, if I approach the ball with a fully extended/locked left elbow, then pivot+grip I may not be able to hit it fat. I do setup with loose and relaxed arms which means arm extension on a backswing could lead to inconsistent contact. I’m not really sure, I’ll have to play with it.

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