"How to Score" - Offshoot of "Playing Lesson or Range Time?" Topic

[iacas]

54 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Errrr....Just voicing my opinion! Hit a nerve perhaps?..You may want to re read my post where I say its (one size fits all)impractical??????

You're welcome

@thefinlex, I'm a bit more direct than @RandallT, and you really seem to have misread his post. It wasn't remotely rude or aggressive.

The truth from my perspective is that of course there's no "one swing fits all," but the reason a bogey golfer is a bogey golfer is because their swing is not very good. It's not got much to do with the idea that they haven't "learned to score" it's that they're incapable of scoring with their swing. You can't score when you don't have a predictable shot.

Learning the game from the green backward is also often backward, if you're using that as a way of saying to work on the short game and putting first and learn the full swing later on. As we know now, the full swing is more important to scoring.

I see you've got 35 or 36 posts or so, but stick around and continue engaging, and we can all learn and grow and play better golf.

P.S. Good instructors don't have "one swing" for every player.

P.P.S. The golf course is no place to learn how to change/improve mechanics.

[thefinlex]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

@thefinlex, I'm a bit more direct than @RandallT, and you really seem to have misread his post. It wasn't remotely rude or aggressive.

The truth from my perspective is that of course there's no "one swing fits all," but the reason a bogey golfer is a bogey golfer is because their swing is not very good. It's not got much to do with the idea that they haven't "learned to score" it's that they're incapable of scoring with their swing. You can't score when you don't have a predictable shot.

Learning the game from the green backward is also often backward, if you're using that as a way of saying to work on the short game and putting first and learn the full swing later on. As we know now, the full swing is more important to scoring.

I see you've got 35 or 36 posts or so, but stick around and continue engaging, and we can all learn and grow and play better golf.

P.S. Good instructors don't have "one swing" for every player.

P.P.S. The golf course is no place to learn how to change/improve mechanics.

Hi iacas,very happy to engage! However we'll have to agree to disagree on a few points :-)......for me decision making on the course counts big time for scoring as does being a lot tidier around the green.If we asked everybody over 18 hcp how many 3 putts and add in the odd duffed chip around the greens they had and  how many shots that added over say...5 rounds then asked everybody playing off less than 10 the same do you think the figures would be the same if they all hit lovely gull shot drives off every tee?

Ps.ive never ever said any instructors  have one swing for anybody!?

Pps . Im a fan of playing golf not standing hitting a ball

 

Play well

 

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Hi iacas,very happy to engage! However we'll have to agree to disagree on a few points :-)......for me decision making on the course counts big time for scoring

We've had discussions about this here before. For example, if Jack Nicklaus caddied for the average 18-handicapper who shoots 95 on average… he may still not break 90 (he may if he can't read greens very well at all). The proper strategy doesn't help you very much when you can't hit the ball there. Nobody plans to hit a fat 7-iron that goes 47 yards.

14 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

counts big time for scoring as does being a lot tidier around the green.

This isn't something on which we have to disagree - there are statistics on this. The average golfer loses far more strokes outside of 65 yards than they do inside 65 yards. That's no longer considered an opinion.

14 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

If we asked everybody over 18 hcp how many 3 putts and add in the odd duffed chip around the greens they had and  how many shots that added over say...5 rounds then asked everybody playing off less than 10 the same do you think the figures would be the same if they all hit lovely gull shot drives off every tee?

Here's a question for you.

Imagine a game in which you pair two average PGA Tour players with two average 80s golfers. Team A will play by having the pro hit every shot that requires a full swing (roughly every shot from 65+ yards), and the 80s golfer will play every short game shot and hit every putt. Team B will play the opposite way: the pro will hit every short game shot and putt after the 80s golfer plays every shot from the tee to about 65 yards.

So basically: Team A has the PGA Tour player hitting the long shots and the 80s guy hitting the short game shots and putts, and Team B the opposite.

On a typical 7000-yard golf course, what might you expect these teams to score? Which team would win?

14 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Pps . Im a fan of playing golf not standing hitting a ball

Look, I have no problem whatsoever with people who enjoy their game at about their current level. But golfers that want to improve… and shoot lower scores… ultimately should spend some time practicing and improving and changing some things, and the place to do that is rarely on the golf course.

8 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Therein lies the problem. Most amateur golfers don't have time to practice AND play. They might get out on the weekend for a round that takes up much of their day. The rest of their week is busy with life. 

This site's full of people who spend a little time several times a week practicing and improving. There's a lot you can do to improve your game in ten minutes at home. You don't have to have a net or visit a range to work on your swing.

Just now, Blackjack Don said:

Along with the exercise from dodging balls from the group behind you as frustrated as I am when I have to wait every single flipping hole. I can just see a guy hitting four or five balls from the sand while he waits for the group in front of him to leave the tee and hit their second balls. Unfortunately, the people behind can't see it. Just that some guy is holding them up while he putts on the green from everywhere. lol

You're allowed to practice your chipping and pitching around the tee of the hole while you wait to tee off. You're assuming he meant he hangs out near the previous green…?

[GolfLug]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

This site's full of people who spend a little time several times a week practicing and improving. There's a lot you can do to improve your game in ten minutes at home. You don't have to have a net or visit a range to work on your swing.

One cannot overstate the importance of this for the average weekender like me with a day job and kids. I play 3 rounds a month at the most in summer. 4 if I really gotten on top of my honey-do. Will be happy to hit 35 rounds again for the entire year. The little 5/10 minutes everyday in my living room or back yard matters. Do whatever you can to get your hands on that club even for a few, pick your priority and stick with it. Eventually the fog lifts. It absolutely does. You can be 7-8 shots better in a year if you are a high handicapper (19) like I was 2 years ago.

I am not going to lie.. You do have to go to range and play to tie it in to actual play as often as you can, but as you mention you take what life will allow you. Don't coast on all-or-nothing. Get going already!

37 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Therein lies the problem. Most amateur golfers don't have time to practice AND play. They might get out on the weekend for a round that takes up much of their day. The rest of their week is busy with life. 

 

[thefinlex]

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

We've had discussions about this here before. For example, if Jack Nicklaus caddied for the average 18-handicapper who shoots 95 on average… he may still not break 90 (he may if he can't read greens very well at all). The proper strategy doesn't help you very much when you can't hit the ball there. Nobody plans to hit a fat 7-iron that goes 47 yards.

This isn't something on which we have to disagree - there are statistics on this. The average golfer loses far more strokes outside of 65 yards than they do inside 65 yards. That's no longer considered an opinion.

Here's a question for you.

Imagine a game in which you pair two average PGA Tour players with two average 80s golfers. Team A will play by having the pro hit every shot that requires a full swing (roughly every shot from 65+ yards), and the 80s golfer will play every short game shot and hit every putt. Team B will play the opposite way: the pro will hit every short game shot and putt after the 80s golfer plays every shot from the tee to about 65 yards.

So basically: Team A has the PGA Tour player hitting the long shots and the 80s guy hitting the short game shots and putts, and Team B the opposite.

On a typical 7000-yard golf course, what might you expect these teams to score? Which team would win?

Look, I have no problem whatsoever with people who enjoy their game at about their current level. But golfers that want to improve… and shoot lower scores… ultimately should spend some time practicing and improving and changing some things, and the place to do that is rarely on the golf course.

This site's full of people who spend a little time several times a week practicing and improving. There's a lot you can do to improve your game in ten minutes at home. You don't have to have a net or visit a range to work on your swing.

You're allowed to practice your chipping and pitching around the tee of the hole while you wait to tee off. You're assuming he meant he hangs out near the previous green…?

No longer considered an opinion?? Bit harsh don't you think? It is my opinion and im sticking with it

Tiger in his pomp,sprayed it everywhere but it was his outrageous short game which destroyed his rivals time and again..during same period E Els couldn't miss a fairway.......Luke Donald world no1 when regularly 30,40 yds behind"better" players off every tee..what a game he had from 100yds in,he couldn't count all the money...DJ US open champ....is it a coincidence he spent some solid time tightening up his wedges during his "layoff" prior to his fantastic form last year?? J Days scrambling stats on run to be currently world no1?

Enjoying the chat but keeping my opinions about short game and course management

 

[Blackjack Don]

6 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

No longer considered an opinion?? Bit harsh don't you think? It is my opinion and im sticking with it

Once I tried to teach my girlfriend how to play better poker. I said let's start with the math. Two plus two equals four, right? Her reply: "Sometimes." At that point I knew it was hopeless. 

It's math, man. Pure and simple statistics. Driving, spec driving distance, is more valuable than a four foot putt. Keeping stats turned the "common wisdom" about putting for dough upside down. There are still some people out there who believe the Earth is flat, that we didn't land men on the moon, but the facts don't lie. We seem to be in an era where everyone has their own facts--aka opinions. Two plus two equals four. Always. The stats don't lie. Liars use stats to lie. Believe it when Erik says it's a fact. Distance counts more. If you want to be on the right path, then you have to change your mind here. Or stay on the wrong path. Your choice. 

[saevel25]

13 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Tiger in his pomp,sprayed it everywhere but it was his outrageous short game which destroyed his rivals time and again..during same period E Els couldn't miss a fairway.......Luke Donald world no1 when regularly 30,40 yds behind"better" players off every tee..what a game he had from 100yds in,he couldn't count all the money...DJ US open champ....is it a coincidence he spent some solid time tightening up his wedges during his "layoff" prior to his fantastic form last year?? J Days scrambling stats on run to be currently world no1?

Actually Tiger was pretty accurate if you consider how far he hit the ball past people. 

Guess what, the reason why Luke Donald was world #1 was because his strokes gained tee to green was the highest it's been in his career during that time frame. Since then he's struggled, because his long game can't hold up. 

Tiger was the best because he was the best from tee to green. Tiger Woods was the best ball striker from 2004 to 2012. He averaged 1.28 strokes over the field each round just from approach shots. That is not including being a better driver of the ball which he gained 0.58 strokes over the field. 

Steve Stricker was the best short game player from that time frame. He averaged 0.68 strokes over the field with his short game. 

Who won more between 2004 and 2012? Tiger or Steve Stricker? 

[thefinlex]

1 minute ago, Blackjack Don said:

Once I tried to teach my girlfriend how to play better poker. I said let's start with the math. Two plus two equals four, right? Her reply: "Sometimes." At that point I knew it was hopeless. 

It's math, man. Pure and simple statistics. Driving, spec driving distance, is more valuable than a four foot putt. Keeping stats turned the "common wisdom" about putting for dough upside down. There are still some people out there who believe the Earth is flat, that we didn't land men on the moon, but the facts don't lie. We seem to be in an era where everyone has their own facts--aka opinions. Two plus two equals four. Always. The stats don't lie. Liars use stats to lie. Believe it when Erik says it's a fact. Distance counts more. If you want to be on the right path, then you have to change your mind here. Or stay on the wrong path. Your choice. 

Wow,now we are getting deep :-)! Im happy to stay on  the dark side,I can and do still shift it out there with my driver and enjoy it very much however  I think you might actually find that a gigantically massive drive and a  6inch putt are completely and utterly equal...1 shot each on your card...thats the maths...right?

Holing putts wins matches and turns the tide.a massive drive into the bushes can only be saved by scrambling and then holing your putt and still getting to write 4 on your card instead of 6......or do you hole all your drives?

 

I get the whole thing but its absolutely essential to have a tidy short game to finish off your full swing fascination otherwise why bother standing on the tee?

Okay im giving up,maybe its cultural..who knows..im off to practice my scrambling putting and holing out guys...enjoy the range im out

[GolfLug]

38 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Wow,now we are getting deep :-)! Im happy to stay on  the dark side,I can and do still shift it out there with my driver and enjoy it very much however  I think you might actually find that a gigantically massive drive and a  6inch putt are completely and utterly equal...1 shot each on your card...thats the maths...right?

Holing putts wins matches and turns the tide.a massive drive into the bushes can only be saved by scrambling and then holing your putt and still getting to write 4 on your card instead of 6......or do you hole all your drives?

 

I get the whole thing but its absolutely essential to have a tidy short game to finish off your full swing fascination otherwise why bother standing on the tee?

Okay im giving up,maybe its cultural..who knows..im off to practice my scrambling putting and holing out guys...enjoy the range im out

Don't give up. Here's something else to think about. Once you have the basic chipping and pitching competency (getting ANYWHERE on the green), the law of diminishing returns apply. Shots wise I think super hard to squeeze out gains once you are decent at getting on the green and then ho-hum 2 putt. Just a generality but on a given Sunday it works out ok. Putting competency is even lower in skills rank. But yes, in general if you are hitting 50%+ FIR and GIRs, yet duffing 3-4 or more chips a round then by all means, absolutely work on it above everything else. Nobody would argue that.  

Long game on the other hand can let you continue squeezing out a lot of shots beyond basics. Applies to tee ball and approach.

Remember the professionals you cite have a level of long game maturity (even Luke Donald) that is hardly comparable to us weekenders.   

[thefinlex]

15 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Don't give up. Here's something else to think about. Once you have the basic chipping and pitching competency (getting ANYWHERE on the green), the law of diminishing returns apply. Shots wise I think super hard to squeeze out gains once you are decent at getting on the green and then ho-hum 2 putt. Just a generality but on a given Sunday it works out ok. Putting competency is even lower in skills rank. But yes, in general if you are hitting 50%+ FIR and GIRs, yet duffing 3-4 or more chips a round then by all means, absolutely work on it above everything else. Nobody would argue that.  

Long game on the other hand can let you continue squeezing out a lot of shots beyond basics. Applies to tee ball and approach.

Remember the professionals you cite have a level of long game maturity (even Luke Donald) that is hardly comparable to us weekenders.   

? it's all good,you US guys have a stat for everything! I grew up in Australia on the sand belt and have been in Scotland for last 17 yrs playing links golf and in both places it's about match play and getting the ball in the hole the quickest,how you do it is up to you,the only stat that matters is either being up/ down in a match,driving distance ,FIR,GIR...whatever! Hole out and you win end of story.Ive seen plenty of really good golfers and the top ones,on TV or not are razor sharp around the greens which means they score well which means they win more often than not,driver gets you in play ,putter finishes the game,The pros I mention ,to me at least ,illustrate why driving is trumped by finishing ability around the greens and as such I'm on course way more than range putting myself in situations that demand I get it close regardless of how far I hit my drive....play well

[Blackjack Don]

Something else that I believe should be said about golf. Practice is necessary. There is an old saying where I'm from: "You get out what you put into it." There are a lot of things that benefit from practice, and golf is definitely high on the list. Anyone can go out and swing a club and eventually hit the ball. "That's a good one, peach!" But the only way to get the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible is to practice. Hours, a lot. Kids get better faster because they listen a little bit better and find practice fun. I caught a lot of grounders as a kid, probably a lot more than an MLB player does every day. Yet, they still do in practice and warm-ups. I watch guys get out of their cars, go to the first tee, do three stretches with their driver, four practice swings, and away they go. How many ever took a lesson? Probably the few that hit a few balls on the range before. The rest might not even believe in practicing.

Practice and play are not the same things. I don't even know how one actually practices on the courses here. There aren't any open holes. Practicing is repetition. Even hitting one shot per club to a specific target on the range is repetitious. What, you're gonna go have a beer before you hit the next round? You know what's coming. That's practice.

I haven't heard anyone connect golf with the 10,000 Hour Rule. (Not really a rule; more like a suggestion.)  I believe it applies to golf, big time. Practice for 10,000 hours at anything and you'll get good, really, really good. 2,000 might be enough to get to single digits. Someday, someone is going to do a study and quantify it within a percentile. That's what science does. 5,000 hours might get one to scratch, even. But there isn't any doubt in my mind that hitting 10,000,000 golf balls isn't going to get someone whose got any talent at all to be great. Furyk, anyone?

How can one practice on the course?

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

No longer considered an opinion?? Bit harsh don't you think? It is my opinion and im sticking with it

No, it's not really an opinion anymore, because we can study these sorts of things and determine what the facts are. And we've done that, and the facts are pretty evident: the average golfer loses far more strokes outside of 65 yards than inside 65 yards.

At any skill level, any handicap.

I'm not trying in the least to be offensive. When I say it's not really an opinion anymore, I mean that in the same way that "the earth is flat" is no longer an opinion. Someone may still believe it, but we pretty much know the earth is closer in shape to a sphere…

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

Tiger in his pomp,sprayed it everywhere but it was his outrageous short game which destroyed his rivals time and again.

You sure about that? Because the information available says differently. Check this out:

Or consider this chart, from 2004-2012:

You can view a larger version of that image here: https://thesandtrap.com/gallery/image/37-table-6-4-from-esc/?imageSize=large

That table says that Tiger gained an amazing 2.79 strokes per round on the average PGA Tour player. Those strokes gained were divided up as follows: 0.58 driving (his distance helps this a bit, even if he was a bit more wild), 1.28 approach (everything outside 100 yards), 0.30 short game, 0.63 putting.

For the total of the top 40, you can see that they made up 68% of their strokes on the full swing, and only 32% with their short game and putting (and Broadie includes 99-yard shots as short game, even though I'd call it more of a full swing skill).

So not only is what you believe about Tiger Woods off target, we find that these ratios are pretty consistent across any two sets of golfers: golfers who shoot 95 lose about 2/3 of their shots to a guy who shoots 85 or 75 because of their full swing.

It's contrary to what golfers have believed for centuries, but it's true.

I wrote a book about this stuff too. Sold a bunch of copies, too. Check it out: http://lowestscorewins.com/.

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

DJ US open champ....is it a coincidence he spent some solid time tightening up his wedges during his "layoff" prior to his fantastic form last year?? J Days scrambling stats on run to be currently world no1?

 

Do you know how many strokes Dustin Johnson gained just with his driving alone at that U.S. Open?

Dude, DJ gained an incredible 2.4 strokes per round with his driving. Link: http://www.golfdigest.com/story/dustin-johnsons-us-open-driving-stats-at-oakmont-were-absurd .

Jason Day was second with 1.5 strokes gained driving.

Quote

Of course, Johnson did everything else pretty well also. He was 11th in strokes gained approach-the-green, 24th in strokes gained around the green and 30th in strokes gained putting. So what did Johnson think the best part of his game was?

The case is really compelling.

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

Enjoying the chat but keeping my opinions about short game and course management

You're entitled to, but the earth ain't flat, my friend.

1 hour ago, Blackjack Don said:

It's math, man. Pure and simple statistics. Driving, spec driving distance, is more valuable than a four foot putt. Keeping stats turned the "common wisdom" about putting for dough upside down. There are still some people out there who believe the Earth is flat, that we didn't land men on the moon, but the facts don't lie. We seem to be in an era where everyone has their own facts--aka opinions. Two plus two equals four. Always. The stats don't lie. Liars use stats to lie. Believe it when Erik says it's a fact. Distance counts more. If you want to be on the right path, then you have to change your mind here. Or stay on the wrong path. Your choice. 

Ha, I didn't even read your post before I made my own "earth is flat" comment.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Guess what, the reason why Luke Donald was world #1 was because his strokes gained tee to green was the highest it's been in his career during that time frame. Since then he's struggled, because his long game can't hold up.

Yeah, he's still a good putter and wedge player, but he fell off because his hot streak with his driver (relatively speaking) cooled off.

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Tiger was the best because he was the best from tee to green. Tiger Woods was the best ball striker from 2004 to 2012. He averaged 1.28 strokes over the field each round just from approach shots. That is not including being a better driver of the ball which he gained 0.58 strokes over the field.

I didn't do the math above, but of the 2.79 strokes, 1.86 comes from his driving and approach shots. That's exactly 2/3, or ~66.7%. His short game accounted for only 0.3 strokes, or less than 11%.

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

Wow,now we are getting deep :-)! Im happy to stay on  the dark side,I can and do still shift it out there with my driver and enjoy it very much however  I think you might actually find that a gigantically massive drive and a  6inch putt are completely and utterly equal...1 shot each on your card...thats the maths...right?

No.

Because nobody misses a six-inch putt, but few people can hit a "gigantically massive drive."

You already putt almost as well as a PGA Tour player. You don't hit the ball at all like a PGA Tour player. It's not even close.

Hell, I putt better than a good chunk of PGA Tour players. I can't hold a candle to them from 193-yards out in the fairway.

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

Holing putts wins matches and turns the tide.a massive drive into the bushes can only be saved by scrambling and then holing your putt and still getting to write 4 on your card instead of 6......or do you hole all your drives?

Please be open minded. You only stand to benefit.

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

I get the whole thing but its absolutely essential to have a tidy short game to finish off your full swing fascination otherwise why bother standing on the tee?

Nobody's saying the short game is unimportant. Short game and putting is still about a third of what it takes to score in the game of golf.

But…

• You're already a pretty good putter and have a decent short game. Most people are. There's not much "Separation" to be had in the short game or putting game.
• The full swing accounts for TWICE the importance of the short game/putting combined.

You didn't answer my question above: which team wins? Team A or Team B? What do they shoot, approximately?

1 hour ago, thefinlex said:

Okay im giving up,maybe its cultural..who knows..im off to practice my scrambling putting and holing out guys...enjoy the range im out

Your loss.

Regardless of how much you practice your putting, you're never going to be able to make even 70% of your eight footers on the golf course, let alone, say, a third of your twenty footers. You can only get so good, and you're much closer to the ceiling as a putter than you are with the full swing.

35 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Just a generality but on a given Sunday it works out ok. Putting competency is even lower in skills rank. But yes, in general if you are hitting 50%+ FIR and GIRs, yet duffing 3-4 or more chips a round then by all means, absolutely work on it above everything else. Nobody would argue that.

Yes, we're talking about averages, not any one person who may have a glaring weakness that they should address.

10 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

? it's all good,you US guys have a stat for everything! I grew up in Australia on the sand belt and have been in Scotland for last 17 yrs playing links golf and in both places it's about match play and getting the ball in the hole the quickest

I'll take the player who hits more greens in a match. Getting the ball in the hole the quickest is 2/3 about the full swing, and only 1/3 about the short game and putting.

I don't care what kind of short game you have… you'd rather have birdie putts than birdie chips. Giving yourself birdie putts is a function of your full swing.

10 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

Hole out and you win end of story.

Like Tiger Woods? Or the other Top 40 guys from the chart above? Who used their full swing to account for 68% of their success over their peers?

Keep an open mind, or stay close minded and don't learn anything today.

---

@Blackjack Don, a ton of people have connected golf to the 10,000 hour rule. Most famously, perhaps, read this thread:

Or read this article: https://thesandtrap.com/b/throwing_darts/an_interview_with_the_dan_plan .

[Blackjack Don]

I'm not sure where this topic is supposed to go, or where it will, but if I may, this is my four-lesson plan with the pro at my local course. I am a "range member" and get unlimited buckets of practice balls. I take advantage. I am up to about five buckets a week. Yesterday I took my first lesson, on the range. He changed a LOT of stuff I was doing. We worked on it enough that I feel confident I can do what he asked me to do. (If it feels terrible, it's good. If it feels good, I've gone back to where I was, not where I need to go. I know this from teaching skiing even more than tennis.) I've got lots of work to do.

I asked about his plan. He said for me to work on it and next week we'll work on the driver and fairway clubs. He then said the third will be chipping and putting. That should be interesting. Finally, the fourth lesson will be on the course.

I think this is where the thread may go. I have a pretty good idea of where I'll be when we get to the sand. (We don't have a practice bunker. We'll get that out on the course.)

Yes? Comments?

[DaveP043]

34 minutes ago, thefinlex said:

 it's about match play and getting the ball in the hole the quickest,how you do it is up to you,the only stat that matters is either being up/ down in a match,driving distance ,FIR,GIR...whatever! 

I think I can simplify this.  Lets play a match, and I hit every green in regulation, while you miss half of them.  So far its all about full-swing stuff.  For the holes where we're both on the green in regulation, say I'm closer, because I'm obviously a better ball-striker.  Even if you're a much better putter, you're likely to gain no more than a hole or two on those nine, or maybe we're even, because you're putting from further away on average.  Remember, I'm the better ball-striker.  On the others, where I'm on the green putting and you're chipping, you're going to struggle to halve most of them.  I'm going to make more putts, even if I'm not great, than you're going to chip in.  I win those 9 holes, 3 or 4 or 5 up.  The match is mine, based almost entirely on ball-striking and full swings, even if your short game is better.  What do you need to do to win?  Chip in more often, or hit more greens?  The more effective thing to do, if you can, is to improve your full swing stuff, and hit more greens.

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

I'm not sure where this topic is supposed to go

It's just a place to continue the discussion that was off topic in the other topic.

[Kalnoky]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The match is mine, based almost entirely on ball-striking and full swings, even if your short game is better.  

This is absolutely true.

[14ledo81]

It sure is great to have a world class short game and get up and down for an 8 though.  Otherwise one would have scored a 10....

[woodzie264]

30 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think I can simplify this.  Lets play a match, and I hit every green in regulation, while you miss half of them.  So far its all about full-swing stuff.  For the holes where we're both on the green in regulation, say I'm closer, because I'm obviously a better ball-striker.  Even if you're a much better putter, you're likely to gain no more than a hole or two on those nine, or maybe we're even, because you're putting from further away on average.  Remember, I'm the better ball-striker.  On the others, where I'm on the green putting and you're chipping, you're going to struggle to halve most of them.  I'm going to make more putts, even if I'm not great, than you're going to chip in.  I win those 9 holes, 3 or 4 or 5 up.  The match is mine, based almost entirely on ball-striking and full swings, even if your short game is better.  What do you need to do to win?  Chip in more often, or hit more greens?  The more effective thing to do, if you can, is to improve your full swing stuff, and hit more greens.

^^^^*Exactly

8 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

It sure is great to have a world class short game and get up and down for an 8 though.  Otherwise one would have scored a 10....

Hahahaha ha