Newport Cup Matches - Points and Changes

[iacas]

In 2015, the Newport Cup worked as follows:

• Two teams of six players.
• Two rounds of foursomes, two rounds of four-ball, one round of singles
• Nassau scoring (front, back, total match play) in each
• 9 points available in each of the first four rounds (3 matches, 3 points per match), 18 in the singles (6 x 3)
• This set up a 36:18 ratio for the partner matches versus the singles matches

In reading the responses in the main thread, most people are saying that they preferred the team matches and didn't like the singles as much. Nobody disliked the singles, it just wasn't as liked.

Also, in the Ryder Cup, the ratio is 16:12. 4:3. Our ratio right now is 2:1.

For those two reasons, I'm interested in changing up the singles format, but I'm not sure how. I'm not committed to changing them, but I'm interested in looking into it. The goals of any change might be to:

• Get closer to 4:3 ratio.
• Include the second opponent in the singles match.
• Avoid 1/4 points (so no half-point sides or whatever).
• Avoid complicated allocation of handicap strokes.

None of them (except the third) are absolutes. Maybe a 2:1 ratio is good because nobody wants the pressure of feeling really bad if they lose six points in singles alone. I'd also like to preserve the idea that it's a "singles" match.

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The rest of this post will be me brainstorming a bit, or thinking out loud.

16:12 is 4:3. If we take 36 then the divisor is 9, and so 4:3 would be 36:27. 27 is an odd number dividing by 6. 24 is closer, which means each player can win four points per match the final round.

Right now they stand to win 3. So the fourth point, maybe they can just play a singles match against the other opponent in the group? So if A is playing X, and B is playing Y, those matches are for three points, while they also have a 1-point match A vs. Y, B vs. X.

Maybe. The handicapping* might be a little weird there, as too might the idea that A is out of a hole and picks up, while Y is also out of the hole and picks up but for one less (because B got a 4 and X got a 5, so for match play, 5 and 6 lose the hole). That could be worked around by requiring everyone to hole out, but… that kind of defeats the idea of match play. It's not the end of the world, but it's a little weird.

* If the handicaps are A=1, B=4, X=2, and Y=7… A vs. X means X gets one shot on the #1 handicap hole, but in his single-point match against B he gives two strokes on the #1 and #2 handicap holes to B. That's what I mean by the handicapping can get a bit weird.

Perhaps the two bonus points per match should be given to the team that wins the front and the back? Let's say A wins against X 2-up and loses the back 2-down. B loses the front to Y 1-down and wins the back 2-up.

A wins 1.5 points, X wins 1.5 points. B wins 2 points, Y wins 1 points in their singles matches.

Then AB won 2-up and 1-down on the front, so they win the front point 1-up. On the back nine they halved, as AB lost 2-down and won 2-up. So the bonus points are awarded 1.5 to 0.5.

I'm open to other ideas. I'm not married to four-point singles matches (eight points per foursome), but I'm leaning that way just because it puts close to 4:3 ratio on the points.

Since it's eight points per foursome, it is certainly possible that we just play front and back versus both of the opposing players for two points each. Each player can then win or lose four points, and you get to 24 again. But this is not without the handicapping issues noted above.

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I'd love to hear what other ideas y'all have. I'm open to anything. I'm even open to the idea of giving each team a yellow golf ball (maybe an optic yellow Get Sum) and saying that it's worth 1 point - before anyone tees off on a hole you play that ball alternate shot and if you make a par or better (gross) you get the point. If you bogey or worse the opposing team gets the point. That way it's truly an "extra" point that adds a little "team" aspect to one hole per round without complicating the handicaps or anything like that.

Just a thought.

Let's brainstorm. No bad ideas, so long as you're not completely ignoring the guidelines/goals…

[saevel25]

How about an extra point for winning the overall in singles? 

So one point for front and back. Two points for overall. Maybe just an extra point for running the table, winning front, middle, and overall? 

This of course would mean the scoring is slightly different than for team play. 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Maybe just an extra point for running the table, winning front, middle, and overall? 

No to that subset of what you said just because then some matches would be 3 and some would be 4 points.

My goal, if we change them, is to do something a little different, not just have the same one-v-one singles matches but change the points values to 4 instead of 3.

[kpaulhus]

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

How about an extra point for winning the overall in singles? 

So one point for front and back. Two points for overall. Maybe just an extra point for running the table, winning front, middle, and overall? 

This of course would mean the scoring is slightly different than for team play. 

I like this. Based on 2015, though, there were not many running the table. I agree on no half points for singles. If you are tied after 9 holes, then the back 9 is worth it all. 

[iacas]

Just now, kpaulhus said:

I like this. Based on 2015, though, there were not many running the table. I agree on no half points for singles. If you are tied after 9 holes, then the back 9 is worth it all. 

If you tied the front nine it's already going to be 2.5 to 0.5 (or 1.5 to 1.5), which is awfully close to running the table.

And which does nothing to change the points total for singles.

[kpaulhus]

Just now, iacas said:

If you tied the front nine it's already going to be 2.5 to 0.5 (or 1.5 to 1.5), which is awfully close to running the table.

And which does nothing to change the points total for singles.

Thats true. I think making all singles matches 4pts vs standard 3 would impact the total weight of scoring in the right way. I mean in the WGC they dont play a Nassau, so maybe we go Nassau for all team rounds and singles is strictly a 4pt match. 

[GolfLug]

Like the idea of engaging the other match opponent and partner to introduce a team element in the singles day. So for that , 1/2 point per side for the net up or down totaled between the two teams as suggested. If all tied then pick 3 holes blindly after the match (or could 3 holes per side picked by captains as tie breaker holes before the match not know to the players) on each side for the nets. Or keep picking more holes till sudden death. Little complicated but could work.  

EDIT: This also adds a bit luck of the draw element which would be fun except for holes already played so not a complete coin toss type luck.

[iacas]

Just now, kpaulhus said:

Thats true. I think making all singles matches 4pts vs standard 3 would impact the total weight of scoring in the right way. I mean in the WGC they dont play a Nassau, so maybe we go Nassau for all team rounds and singles is strictly a 4pt match. 

The point of having nassau throughout the competition has a purpose, though. Nassaus keep players engaged longer as it's tougher to blow out matches. Even if I win the first five holes, my opponent can get the front nine to 1 up which has ramifications for the total point, for example. Plus I think the distribution is a bit more fair: 1 to 2 if you win a nine but lose overall and the back, or 0.5 to 2.5 if you halve nine holes but lose overall 1-down to 9-down… etc.

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Another idea: the fourth point in each match is for net score. This mixes match and stroke play formats, which I'm not too keen on as penalties in match play are often loss of hole, but it can "kinda" work. Another con: it doesn't do anything to involve the other opponent. The con of having to play your ball out is relatively small.

1 minute ago, GolfLug said:

Like the idea of engaging the other match opponent and partner to introduce a team element in the singles day. So for that , 1/2 point per side for the net up or down totaled between the two teams as suggested. If all tied then pick 3 holes blindly after the match (or could 3 holes per side picked by captains as tie breaker holes before the match not know to the players) on each side for the nets. Little complicated but could work.  

There are two points available extra per foursome: last time it was six (two nassaus), this time it's 8. So a full point for the front nine holes won and back nine holes won is your idea. If they're equal, half a point.

Just clarifying.

I'm leaning toward that one, but I also really like the idea of players wagering by playing the yellow ball and needing to get a gross par or better. It's just quirky enough to sound interesting to me, and in the grand scheme of things, six points out of 60 is not a big difference… but it may be enough to make the difference.

But… I want to keep this thread going and hear a LOT more ideas.

Note: I'm not stuck to 36:24. Right now we're at 36:18, so those six points are basically up for grabs. (Another idea:) We could even do something like award 3, 2, and 1 points to the three lowest net scores during singles matches (players would have to hole everything out except gimmes, I guess).

[GolfLug]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm leaning toward that one, but I also really like the idea of players wagering by playing the yellow ball and needing to get a gross par or better. It's just quirky enough to sound interesting to me, and in the grand scheme of things, six points out of 60 is not a big difference… but it may be enough to make the difference.

 

We did an equivalent 'pink ball' type thing for holes 1, 9 and 18 at our club between teams for net Stableford points for an extra singular bet aside from the main bet. Was fun.  

[phillyk]

Pick a random par 3 to be a KP challenge for the point.  A yellow or pink ball side game thing sounds good.  Give a point to the person who had more birdies in the match (but that makes you have to hole out).

[iacas]

1 minute ago, phillyk said:

Pick a random par 3 to be a KP challenge for the point.  A yellow or pink ball side game thing sounds good.  Give a point to the person who had more birdies in the match (but that makes you have to hole out).

Not a fan of closest to the pin contests because it's often against what's prescribed in LSW, so I don't want my team trying to fire at the flag.

Plus all too often it's a matter of luck. Awarding two points on that seems like too much.

[bkuehn1952]

One point for winning the first nine, Two points for winning the second nine.  One point for overall.  Puts a premium on closing well.

Or award 1 point for winning the 18th hole.  One can stink out the place all day but still salvage a point on #18.

One reason the Ryder Cup emphasizes singles is they play relatively fewer foursomes & fourball matches with players sitting out.  I do not recommend having people sit out so with everyone playing every match maybe a ratio of 2:1 is appropriate.

 

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

One point for winning the first nine, Two points for winning the second nine.  One point for overall.  Puts a premium on closing well.

Or award 1 point for winning the 18th hole.  One can stink out the place all day but still salvage a point on #18.

Thank you for the suggestion, but that doesn't change the actual format: you're still just playing one person in singles. It doesn't involve the teammate, the other opponent, etc.

38 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

One reason the Ryder Cup emphasizes singles is they play relatively fewer foursomes & fourball matches with players sitting out.  I do not recommend having people sit out so with everyone playing every match maybe a ratio of 2:1 is appropriate.

Yeah, maybe. If none of the ideas seem better than what we have, we'll just do what we have again.

But again a lot of the responses seemed to indicate that the singles matches were the least fun of the three formats and the five rounds.

[Big C]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Thank you for the suggestion, but that doesn't change the actual format: you're still just playing one person in singles. It doesn't involve the teammate, the other opponent, etc.

Yeah, maybe. If none of the ideas seem better than what we have, we'll just do what we have again.

But again a lot of the responses seemed to indicate that the singles matches were the least fun of the three formats and the five rounds.

I don't want to chime in with suggestions on scoring changes since (sadly) I'm a long shot to be available. 

But I would add that I don't think anyone saw the singles matches as lacking, or "less than," simply because they weren't weighted enough in the overall scoring. I just think the replies reflect the fact that partner golf is a ton of fun. Having that camaraderie, and the feeling that you and a partner pulled through together to score a victory is a great feeling unlike any other. It doesn't diminish the singles aspect at all, IMO. 

 

[sjduffers]

How about giving the extra point to the best net team score while playing 2 matches of singles? In this case, add both (net) scores and the lowest team total wins the point, or half point if they tie.

It's different than the fourball matches, when only the best score of the 2 team members counts. Here, you have to stay in the game, no matter what, for the good of the team... It may force everyone to hole out though, except with a inside the leather kind of rule?

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

How about giving the extra point to the best net team score while playing 2 matches of singles? In this case, add both (net) scores and the lowest team total wins the point, or half point if they tie.

Maybe. But it's two points, if that matters. Two three-point matches become two four-point matches. 6 -> 8. Two points extra per foursome.

The pros are that the partners will be rooting for each other a bit more, the cons are that holing out everything becomes important again.

23 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

It's different than the fourball matches, when only the best score of the 2 team members counts. Here, you have to stay in the game, no matter what, for the good of the team... It may force everyone to hole out though, except with a inside the leather kind of rule?

Yeah.

[sjduffers]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Maybe. But it's two points, if that matters. Two three-point matches become two four-point matches. 6 -> 8. Two points extra per foursome.

I see, this only adds one point per foursome, and you want two. Easily solved: just make this side competition 2 team points, or make it 1 point for the front 9 and 1 point for the back 9, or make best total net score 1 team point (for all 18 holes), and best ball net score (like the fourballs played earlier in the week) another team point.

Many possibilities... Sounds like a lot of fun. I might be still under 10 by then, I hope and would love to be considered, but I am not currently all that firm on the time frame.

[Golfingdad]

For the record, I did like the singles. :)

As far as the proposed changes, I do like the idea of including the other opponent somehow.  I think you're first idea - keeping the 3 point match the same and then also having a 1 point match against the other opponent is pretty intriguing and simple.

I also like the yellow ball idea, or some variation thereof.  Perhaps instead of letting each team choose the yellow ball hole, we'd have to draw a number out of a hat.  Or, the opposing team gets to choose the hole for you.  Or automatically make it the 18th hole so some of us will have an audience. :)