Help with generating power.. For people who go OTT

[sharpljp]

 While watching a few pros tee off this morning in Orlando, I notice a big difference in my swing compared to theirs (actually a lot of difference lol). 

I have trouble going Over the top. Keeping my right palm down has helped, but I still battle a 20 yard fade which takes off more distance than I can afford. 

 

At the beginning of the downswing from the top, I tend to want to "rip it" like I used to in baseball. I get in fine position but it's habit for me to screw up the downswing. 

When I watch the pros in slow-mo, their transition from the top looks effortless. It looks like they just drop the hands and arms right back to the ball. And when they get in the hitting zone (when club reaches knee height on downswing), they then rotate their hips, square the club and continue to rotate their hips with a great finish. It looks like they are not trying to hit the ball hard from the top (which I know I look like I AM swinging hard from the top).

My question is..

Where do they get the power? 

Besides hitting it flush, what generates the power that these guys get from a simple 3/4 swing? 

 

Im a strong guy in the gym and get FRUSTRATED (yes very frustrated) when I feel like I'm giving max effort to swing my 3 wood 100-103 mph only to get 230-235 including roll. Same with my wedges.. Pitching wedge only goes 120 and that's a perfect shot.  56° sand wedge goes maximum 80 yards if I'm lucky. 

Any tips from you guys to help me with a more "easier" swing? If i drop the hands, arms correctly on the downswing.. what generates power through the hitting zone? Legs? It feels so weird and so weak (like distance weak) when I try to drop the arms/hands correctly. Thank you guys so much.

[DaveP043]

The teachers on this site use the term "power accumulators", which to my brain correspond to angles in your swing that are opened and closed during the swing.  My list is a little different from theirs, but I think of the rotation of your hips as compared to the ground, your shoulders rotation in relation to your hips, left (forward) arm v. shoulder line, clubshaft v. left arm.  If you open and close any one of these angles, you produce some movement of the clubhead, its at the end of the line, so to speak.  But by combining the changes of each of these angles in the right order, with the right timing, you build one factor on top of another, each amplifying the next, producing swing speed.  Pure strength matters a whole lot less than proper sequencing.

Please understand that I'm NOT an instructor, so my explanation probably doesn't coincide with proper instruction, but I believe that it makes sense kinematically.  If you want to read what good instructors have said, check out this old thread about power accumulators:

 

[sharpljp]

 

this is about a 15 yard fade (one of my better shots honestly) with a three wood. You can see at the top, it's like I can't help but turn my body left like i would in baseball. I don't let the arms fall. When I do try to let the arms fall, I either miss-hit it or it doesn't have much power behind it.

[DaveP043]

I won't be one giving advice, I'm not qualified.  I suggest you find a local instructor, or use Evolver, or post videos here:

https://thesandtrap.com/forums/forum/13-member-swings/

If you choose to post on TST, be sure to open the hidden contents to understand the procedures, and follow the link provided under #4 to film your swing in a way that allows the instructors to properly analyze them.

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, sharpljp said:

 

this is about a 15 yard fade (one of my better shots honestly) with a three wood. You can see at the top, it's like I can't help but turn my body left like i would in baseball. I don't let the arms fall. When I do try to let the arms fall, I either miss-hit it or it doesn't have much power behind it.

Do you have a My Swing thread? If not, start one with this video.

[phillyk]

Like @DaveP043 said angles, flexibility, timing, and lag create power.  Just a quick glance at the video, to me, shows you are not quite getting the hips turned enough by impact and you are releasing your wrist hinge too early.  The late release of that hinge is big for power.  Try those orange whip or training aids that "snap" when you release.

[sharpljp]

Just posted to my swing!!

 

 

[sharpljp]

Philly thanks man. I will check those training aids out. Makes sense 

[arturo28mx]

I recently gained about 20 yards with the driver by learning to properly release my arms in the downswing. VERY important to keep the arms close together, otherwise the release is not so good. This allows me to maximize the "whip" effect of the club.

This concept works for ALL clubs.

Edited March 16, 2017 by arturo28mx

[Howling Coyote]

5 hours ago, sharpljp said:

 Im a strong guy in the gym and get FRUSTRATED (yes very frustrated) when I feel like I'm giving max effort to swing my 3 wood 100-103 mph only to get 230-235 including roll. Same with my wedges.. Pitching wedge only goes 120 and that's a perfect shot.  56° sand wedge goes maximum 80 yards if I'm lucky. 

Wow!  You hit it hard!  When I warm up and start getting club head speed over 75mph, that's when the ball starts to fly over 200 yards.  I never get over 80mph.  I can't imagine getting over 100mph.  My goal is a more realistic 80mph.

Strength has nothing to do with it.  Tiger Woods when he was a scrawny kid and new to the tour could hit it further, than just a few years later after going to the gym and becoming all buff.

In the circus imagine a lion tamer using a bull whip.  The tamer can only move his hands at most 25 mph.  Yet the whip cracks and we are told by physicists this means part of the whip broke the sound barrier.  How can a man who is only capable of moving his hands 25mph can get a whip to break the sound barrier?   This phenomena is  described in physics, but I have never seen a name or label put on it.  So I will put a name on it, and call it compression of angular momentum.

In simple terms, you are taking all of the angular momentum (stored in your body during the backswing) and chasing (or compressing) it into the very end of the club.  You do this by decelerating.  That's right, on the downswing, you've got to decelerate into impact.

[sharpljp]

Interesting. I'm able to get the swing speed by incorrectly swinging too, which is why I'd like to learn to swing correctly.. it would make the game so much more fun.

[Lihu]

6 hours ago, sharpljp said:

Im a strong guy in the gym and get FRUSTRATED (yes very frustrated) when I feel like I'm giving max effort to swing my 3 wood 100-103 mph only to get 230-235 including roll. Same with my wedges.. Pitching wedge only goes 120 and that's a perfect shot.  56° sand wedge goes maximum 80 yards if I'm lucky.

You're not really that far off. . .

232 with 3W is only short by about 10-15 yards. You hit in the same range as the 106mph driver SS category (Senior Tour). The chart shows carry distance and add about 15 yards to that for about 245. In fact, it might be even less because the chart shows 14.4 degrees of loft.

Check out this chart:

6 minutes ago, sharpljp said:

Interesting. I'm able to get the swing speed by incorrectly swinging too, which is why I'd like to learn to swing correctly.. it would make the game so much more fun.

Yeah, that makes sense. You already have a lot of swing speed. I suppose it's just a matter of taming it so to speak?

 

12 minutes ago, Howling Coyote said:

Wow!  You hit it hard!  When I warm up and start getting club head speed over 75mph, that's when the ball starts to fly over 200 yards.  I never get over 80mph.  I can't imagine getting over 100mph.  My goal is a more realistic 80mph.

75 to 80mph doesn't generate enough ball speed to get 200 on the fly?

 

Quote

Strength has nothing to do with it.  Tiger Woods when he was a scrawny kid and new to the tour could hit it further, than just a few years later after going to the gym and becoming all buff.

Size has nothing to do with it, but strength has everything to do with distance. . .

[sharpljp]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yeah, that makes sense. You already have a lot of swing speed. I suppose it's just a matter of taming it so to speak?

Interesting graph! Pretty cool, I've never seen a graph like that. But yes, I feel like if i could learn to swing correctly then i could maybe even pick up some swing speed AND/OR swing easier and hit it further. My "dream swing" is to be able to swing as hard as I can.. but also properly... or at-least semi properly.

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, sharpljp said:

Interesting graph! Pretty cool, I've never seen a graph like that. But yes, I feel like if i could learn to swing correctly then i could maybe even pick up some swing speed AND/OR swing easier and hit it further. My "dream swing" is to be able to swing as hard as I can.. but also properly... or at-least semi properly.

This is my goal, but there are plenty of super strong golfers swinging as fast as they can with just enough control.

[Howling Coyote]

12 minutes ago, sharpljp said:

Interesting. I'm able to get the swing speed by incorrectly swinging too, which is why I'd like to learn to swing correctly.. it would make the game so much more fun.

Also it is best to fix the coming over the top issue.  I don't think you will ever be able to whip the club without fixing this.

[Let it Fly]

6 hours ago, sharpljp said:

It feels so weird and so weak (like distance weak) when I try to drop the arms/hands correctly.

Man, you and I seem very much alike.  Former baseball player, liked to swing hard, OTT motion...loss of distance from it.  I was also delivering the face open, and it was leading to "big league" pop-ups that seemed to go higher than they did far.  Have recently taken some lessons with a good instructor who showed me the feel & motion of coming from the inside rather than OTT.  It definitely feels weird, and I'm prepared for it to be that way for a while as I continue to work on it knowing it's the path to getting better in the long run.  

Right now I'd say it's also "distance weak" as you reference above, but I attribute that to the fact I can't properly perform the motion/shot anywhere close to full-speed.  Although, I did try it a few times at full speed, ignorantly thinking I had it down after 3 range sessions...results were less than stellar.  One swing hit the mat so far behind the ball that the club actually bounced over it for one hell of an awkward swing-and-miss!

With time & patience the change will be worth it.  It'll look prettier, too...all baseball players know you "gotta look good to feel good" haha.    

[RandallT]

This is very technical and long and probably pretty geeky, but I think it gets right to your question, @sharpljp. Why does OTT make it hard to play good golf (be more consistent with more power)?

If you watch the portion from 8:00 to 10:00, they discuss why getting the club below the hand path is better than having the club be above the hand path (Over the Top). They mainly discuss how a shallower plane facilitates squaring the club face with minimal muscular effort, but also later in the video they mention that it helps get max club head speed.

You might need to watch more than just that section to get the context, but from 8:00-10:00, they address OTT. They talk about how when the club is coming in to the ball from above the hand path, that you are fighting the natural forces that are at work. 

Admittedly, the video takes some slogging through and perhaps even a couple views to totally get all they're saying, but really helped me to finally buy into why OTT is just never really going to work if you want to have fun playing golf more consistently and with decent power.

[metbid]

One thing I also noticed in your swing video is that you fall away onto the heel of your left foot near the bottom of your swing.  That can cause the cutting of the ball and result in a slice. It also probably robs you of some power at the bottom of your swing.  I agree with @arturo28mx, I use one of the whip-type trainers and it has really helped me to stabilize my lower body and keep my weight going forward through impact.