I hate tailgaters

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Exactly what I saw, the guy being tailgated then proceeded to turn into the slow lane and drive there.

No. You're misreading the shit outta that thing.

The CA DMV tweeted about the exact video we're talking about, @Lihu!

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

At least in CA, the person behind is always at fault, so I am looking at it from that point of view.

Dude…

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

No. You're misreading the shit outta that thing.

The CA DMV tweeted about the exact video we're talking about, @Lihu!

Dude…

I can't read the tweet, in fact, I can't see most of the tweets on this site.

 

 

The text said brake checking, and looked up the definition of "brake check".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brake check

Honestly, I can't say for sure that's what the lead car actually did. I thought it was tapping the brake for a moment.

The DMV manual recommends tapping lightly on the brakes to let them know you want to pull over and that's what the lead car did, pull over. . .

Edited March 27, 2017 by Lihu

[DaveP043]

11 minutes ago, Lihu said:

At least in CA, the person behind is always at fault, so I am looking at it from that point of view.

I don't care who's legally at fault, if the tailgater runs into me after I hit by brakes, I lose out.  My car is damaged, perhaps I'm injured, that's a loss in my books, no matter who pays for it.  And if the tailgater loses control, maybe he rolls his car a couple of times and ends up in the hospital, maybe he hits someone else.  I still have to look myself in the face, act like an adult, and accept some responsibility.  I'm not talking legal liability, but still I'm going to feel guilt if someone is injured in part because of something I did.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't care who's legally at fault, if the tailgater runs into me after I hit by brakes, I lose out.  My car is damaged, perhaps I'm injured, that's a loss in my books, no matter who pays for it.  And if the tailgater loses control, maybe he rolls his car a couple of times and ends up in the hospital, maybe he hits someone else.  I still have to look myself in the face, act like an adult, and accept some responsibility.  I'm not talking legal liability, but still I'm going to feel guilt if someone is injured in part because of something I did.

Sure, I agree with what you wrote, but that's not what I am arguing about.

All I said is the brake check didn't cause the accident, it was the tailgating that caused it.

On top of that the DMV recommends that you lightly tap the brakes a few times. It looked like the lead driver was possibly attempting to do that, but as most people are not Nascar drivers he possibly pressed a little too hard. He certainly didn't look like he intended to cause an accident because he didn't really brake all that hard as the speed of the car didn't change that much.

So, going back to my point, tailgating is stupid and causes accidents. In this case, luckily the tailgating car didn't end up hitting other cars as well. What if he went out of control to the other side of the road (which he almost did) and hit oncoming traffic? That would have been really terrible.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The DMV manual recommends tapping lightly on the brakes to let them know you want to pull over and that's what the lead car did, pull over. . .

No.

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

All I said is the brake check didn't cause the accident, it was the tailgating that caused it.

On top of that the DMV recommends that you lightly tap the brakes a few times.

No, they don't! Not for situations like that. You're reading that completely wrong.

Also: https://jimcorleylaw.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/slam-brakes-on-tailgating-criminal-charge-prevent-accident-injury-recovery/

You can look up a TON of things that all say that same thing.

The DMV is recommending it for safety - NOT like what happened in this video.

[Lihu]

Just now, iacas said:

No.

?

[woodzie264]

10 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't care who's legally at fault, if the tailgater runs into me after I hit by brakes, I lose out.  My car is damaged, perhaps I'm injured, that's a loss in my books, no matter who pays for it.  And if the tailgater loses control, maybe he rolls his car a couple of times and ends up in the hospital, maybe he hits someone else.  I still have to look myself in the face, act like an adult, and accept some responsibility.  I'm not talking legal liability, but still I'm going to feel guilt if someone is injured in part because of something I did.

+1  (for some reason I don't have the ability to give reputation in this thread)

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Sure, I agree with what you wrote, but that's not what I am arguing about.

All I said is the brake check didn't cause the accident, it was the tailgating that caused it.

On top of that the DMV recommends that you lightly tap the brakes a few times. It looked like the lead driver was possibly attempting to do that, but as most people are not Nascar drivers he possibly pressed a little too hard. He certainly didn't look like he intended to cause an accident because he didn't really brake all that hard as the speed of the car didn't change that much.

I don't pretend to be able to tell how severely the lead driver decelerated, those cars are simply too far ahead to have enough perspective.  But its possible that BOTH drivers bear responsibility.  The tailgater was in the wrong, without any doubt.  However, its unlikely the tailgater would have spun out, endangering loads of people behind, if the lead driver hadn't hit the brakes.  The lead driver's action led directly to the accident.  And the lead driver didn't pull over right away, he continued on in the left lane until well after the tailgater spun out.

[Lihu]

Just now, DaveP043 said:

I don't pretend to be able to tell how severely the lead driver decelerated, those cars are simply too far ahead to have enough perspective.  But its possible that BOTH drivers bear responsibility.  The tailgater was in the wrong, without any doubt.  However, its unlikely the tailgater would have spun out, endangering loads of people behind, if the lead driver hadn't hit the brakes.  The lead driver's action led directly to the accident.  And the lead driver didn't pull over right away, he continued on in the left lane until well after the tailgater spun out.

I think is where I seem to disagree with others. . .

From what I see (and I'm basing it on the timing of the dashed lines on the road), the lead driver tapped the brakes and immediately signaled and pulled over. In the meantime, the tail gating car went out of control and ended up hitting a sign on the other side of the road. 2 other cars pulled over including the truck taking the video. The lead car continued on seemingly oblivious to the entire incident behind him.

If the video showed that he broke really hard then continued on in the left lane, I would say that the lead car bears half the responsibility and has to face himself in the mirror for causing what was potentially a horrible accident.

Sure, if I was being tailgated the first thing I would do is signal to turn, then try to speed up to change lanes, but that's me. I've driven and ridden motorcycles for 30+ years all over the country. So, I have a lot of experience.

I'm only arguing that the person in the lead car was not wrong to do what he did in this case. I can't really fault him for not knowing what's going on behind him for that short moment in time. Technically, he's supposed to look into the review mirror every few seconds or so, but not everyone does that exactly every time. What I see in the video does not suggest that he was being malicious.

It would be interesting to be able to interview this person to know for sure.

[TN94z]

I have to disagree with the "lightly tapping." In my opinion, the lead driver hit their brakes fairly hard because you can see the rear of the car come up and the front nose dive a little.  That is not tapping the brakes by my definition. I think the lead car knew exactly what it was doing and drove off feeling it was the tailgater's fault that he wrecked.  Just my .02

[DaveP043]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

From what I see (and I'm basing it on the timing of the dashed lines on the road), the lead driver tapped the brakes and immediately signaled and pulled over. In the meantime, the tail gating car went out of control and ended up hitting a sign on the other side of the road. 2 other cars pulled over including the truck taking the video. The lead car continued on seemingly oblivious to the entire incident behind him.

If the video showed that he broke really hard then continued on in the left lane, I would say that the lead car bears half the responsibility and has to face himself in the mirror for causing what was potentially a horrible accident.

.....

I'm only arguing that the person in the lead car was not wrong to do what he did in this case.

I just looked at it again.  It appears the lead driver stayed on the brakes for about a full second, a little longer than a "tap".  Again, I can't tell how severely be braked, but he DID have some space to his right to change lanes at that time.  Instead, he hit his brakes for about a full second.  The second car began swerving almost immediately, and was completely off the road before the lead driver put on his turn signal.  It was about 4 seconds between the time the lead driver's brake lights went out and the time he started his turn signal.  He didn't "immediately" pull over, 4 seconds is a pretty long time.

Again, I'll ask you and everyone else.  You just touch your brakes (the most innocent possible interpretation of what we see), the car behind you spins out, you see it in your rear-view mirror, and you find out later that 3 people got killed.  How can you NOT feel some guilt?  How do you NOT second-guess your actions?

[jsgolfer]

1 minute ago, TN94z said:

I have to disagree with the "lightly tapping." In my opinion, the lead driver hit their brakes fairly hard because you can see the rear of the car come up and the front nose dive a little.  That is not tapping the brakes by my definition. I think the lead car knew exactly what it was doing and drove off feeling it was the tailgater's fault that he wrecked.  Just my .02

This is the same way I saw it.  This was not a light tapping in the least bit, the brake lights were way to bright for too long to be a tapping. 

29 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't pretend to be able to tell how severely the lead driver decelerated, those cars are simply too far ahead to have enough perspective.  But its possible that BOTH drivers bear responsibility.  The tailgater was in the wrong, without any doubt.  However, its unlikely the tailgater would have spun out, endangering loads of people behind, if the lead driver hadn't hit the brakes.  The lead driver's action led directly to the accident.  And the lead driver didn't pull over right away, he continued on in the left lane until well after the tailgater spun out.

Definitely  both at fault.

15 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I think is where I seem to disagree with others. . .

From what I see (and I'm basing it on the timing of the dashed lines on the road), the lead driver tapped the brakes and immediately signaled and pulled over. In the meantime, the tail gating car went out of control and ended up hitting a sign on the other side of the road. 2 other cars pulled over including the truck taking the video. The lead car continued on seemingly oblivious to the entire incident behind him.

If the video showed that he broke really hard then continued on in the left lane, I would say that the lead car bears half the responsibility and has to face himself in the mirror for causing what was potentially a horrible accident.

Sure, if I was being tailgated the first thing I would do is signal to turn, then try to speed up to change lanes, but that's me. I've driven and ridden motorcycles for 30+ years all over the country. So, I have a lot of experience.

I'm only arguing that the person in the lead car was not wrong to do what he did in this case. I can't really fault him for not knowing what's going on behind him for that short moment in time. Technically, he's supposed to look into the review mirror every few seconds or so, but not everyone does that exactly every time. What I see in the video does not suggest that he was being malicious.

It would be interesting to be able to interview this person to know for sure.

No chance from what I saw did this occur.  The tailgater was already out of control and skidding through the median before this driver put on his blinker and started to move over.

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I just looked at it again.  It appears the lead driver stayed on the brakes for about a full second, a little longer than a "tap".  Again, I can't tell how severely be braked, but he DID have some space to his right to change lanes at that time.  Instead, he hit his brakes for about a full second.  The second car began swerving almost immediately, and was completely off the road before the lead driver put on his turn signal.  It was about 4 seconds between the time the lead driver's brake lights went out and the time he started his turn signal.  He didn't "immediately" pull over, 4 seconds is a pretty long time.

Again, I'll ask you and everyone else.  You just touch your brakes (the most innocent possible interpretation of what we see), the car behind you spins out, you see it in your rear-view mirror, and you find out later that 3 people got killed.  How can you NOT feel some guilt?  How do you NOT second-guess your actions?

Ditto (+1)

 

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I just looked at it again.  It appears the lead driver stayed on the brakes for about a full second, a little longer than a "tap".  Again, I can't tell how severely be braked, but he DID have some space to his right to change lanes at that time.  Instead, he hit his brakes for about a full second.  The second car began swerving almost immediately, and was completely off the road before the lead driver put on his turn signal.  It was about 4 seconds between the time the lead driver's brake lights went out and the time he started his turn signal.  He didn't "immediately" pull over, 4 seconds is a pretty long time.

Again, I'll ask you and everyone else.  You just touch your brakes (the most innocent possible interpretation of what we see), the car behind you spins out, you see it in your rear-view mirror, and you find out later that 3 people got killed.  How can you NOT feel some guilt?  How do you NOT second-guess your actions?

Yes, I agree with your time estimates, but not the intent. Like I said, most people are not Nascar drivers. Some are even slower at doing things than others, Not going to fault the lead car other than he seemed to going 50 in a 70 speed zone.

I think you guys are all assuming that everyone can drive with the same skill level in a mini-van like vehicle that you do in your own cars. That's where we disagree. I think the lead driver was an idiot, but still legally driving within his ability.

I probably would have passed him on the right or blinked him, but he was well within the boundaries of the law. Except in CT where he would be pulled over for "Failure to drive right".

Edited March 27, 2017 by Lihu
spelling

[jsgolfer]

Just now, Lihu said:

Yes, I agree with your time estimates, but not the intent. Like I said, most people are not Nascar drivers. Some are even slower at doing things than others, Not going to fault the lead car other than he seemed to going 50 in a 70 speed zone.

I think you guys are all assuming that everyone can drive with the same skill level in a mini-van like vehicle that you do in your own cars. That's where we disagree. I think the lead driver was an idiot, but still legally driving withing his ability.

I probably would have passed him on the right or blinked him, but he was well within the boundaries of the law. Except in CT where he would be pulled over for "Failure to drive right".

By slamming on the breaks to slow the tailgater down and causing them to crash?  That's driving within his abilities.  He/She must be a horrible driver then, if they just can't put a blinker on and move over and get away from the idiot tailgater.

[ScouseJohnny]

The video speaks for itself. The lead car had room to move into the right hand lane - which he subsequently did anyway. If he was worried about the tailgater, all that was needed was a right hand turn signal - that would have sufficed, perfectly.

Instead, there is no turn signal - he hits the brakes when there is absolutely no need to brake. It's just brake checking, plain and simple - "This asshole behind me is a bad driver, so I'm going to teach him a lesson." Dangerous and stupid.

Edited March 27, 2017 by ScouseJohnny

[Lihu]

Just now, jsgolfer said:

By slamming on the breaks to slow the tailgater down and causing them to crash?  That's driving within his abilities.  He/She must be a horrible driver then, if they just can't put a blinker on and move over and get away from the idiot tailgater.

Sure, you or I would have turned on the blinker first.

Remember that one can legally drive a car with something like an 85 IQ.

1 minute ago, ScouseJohnny said:

The video speaks for itself. The lead car had room to move into the right hand lane - which he subsequently did anyway. If he was worried about the tailgater, all that was needed was a right hand turn signal - that would have sufficed, perfectly.

Instead, there is no turn signal - he hits the brakes when there is absolutely no need to brake. It's just brake checking, plain and simple - "This asshole behind me is a bad driver, so I'm going to teach him a lesson." Dangerous and stupid.

Not sure that was his intent. I think the lead car was just not very smart to begin with. He was driving 50 in a 70 zone in the fast lane.

[TN94z]

So what is the law for braking for no reason in this situation? Is there a negligence law or something that would cause the lead driver to be somewhat responsible? For some reason, I was thinking that you can't just slam your brakes on for no apparent reason....maybe I am dreaming that one up.

[DaveP043]

Last time (I hope) that I chime in.  The tailgater didn't come from nowhere, he was riding the first car's backside when he came into frame at about 0:15.  The brakes light up at 0:30, 15 seconds is a long damn time.  If the lead driver just noticed him and panicked, he wasn't paying attention.  He's wrong.  If he'd seen the tailgater all along, then he deliberately hit the brakes to send a message.  He's wrong that way too.  I don't really care about legally within his rights, I'm talking about driving competently and considerately, minimizing the risks to everyone on the highway.  Right/wrong isn't the same as legal/illegal.

Just now, TN94z said:

So what is the law for braking for no reason in this situation? Is there a negligence law or something that would cause the lead driver to be somewhat responsible? For some reason, I was thinking that you can't just slam your brakes on for no apparent reason....maybe I am dreaming that one up.

@iacas posted a link on this issue up on post #59.