Ernest Jones video

[Jack Watson]

I think if there were any training aid on the market today that Jones would have liked it would be this one imo.   He wrote that leverage cannot be applied through a flexible medium (i.e. his handkerchief).   He said a golf shaft is so stiff it's easy to lever it which he did not espouse.  This shaft is plenty flexible.  No way you could lever this.  The only way to use it is to utilize the swinging action.

Also,  interestingly he did mention that one can look at action photos of good players and show examples of positions that indicate proper motion.  However he also wrote that one must learn to identify the proper action by feel rather than sight.  So he wrote for teaching that he felt action photos did not help in the practical problem of getting a student to acquire the knack of swinging.

Fascinating compared to today where we send videos from our phones to our pros for analysis.  

We have to remember the era he taught in.  Did they have electricity in the twenties? 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Buckeyebowman]

OK, I slogged through the first page of this thread and skipped directly to here.

What the OP is saying seems to me akin to "Guns kill people". What iacas is saying is more like "Guns don't kill people, People kill people." The gun is just a tool, like a golf club is just a tool.

I'm 64 tears old, and have run into people (men) who have no idea how to swing a hammer! How to use a shovel! Hoe. Rake. You name it! Simple everyday tools. I sometimes wonder what planet these people are from!

Then I realized that they're from Earth, but just haven't been taught how to use those tools.

[Vinsk]

I just feel this shows a possibly helpful tool for one aspect of a golf swing, and a very basic aspect at that. In other words, you can swing a club with beautiful tempo, use the body more than the arms, etc..but still hit shanks, pulls, slices, chunks and blades. 

It's like trying to teach somebody how to juggle 3 balls by just saying, 'no, you don't throw the balls into the air, you toss them.' 

[Jack Watson]

56 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I just feel this shows a possibly helpful tool for one aspect of a golf swing, and a very basic aspect at that. In other words, you can swing a club with beautiful tempo, use the body more than the arms, etc..but still hit shanks, pulls, slices, chunks and blades. 

Interesting you say use the body more than the hands.

Jones wrote about the body actions responding to the swinging action of the clubhead sensed through the hands not the body directing the clubhead.

Paraphrase here but he said that while turning the torso is an important aspect of the correct action that focusing on that turning will not help one to produce the proper action.

Also re the last part I didn't quote he wrote some about the fact that once the player learns the art of the swing he must practice intelligently if his goal is to develop his golf skill.  Never once did he write or imply that simply being able to swing the clubhead automatically produces results.  Seems he viewed that as the only correct 'first step' to playing the game.

He mentioned if one has started correctly in golf they can make headway towards improvement as long as they play and if they have not started correctly or made headway then it's best to start over from the beginning the right way.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

He mentioned if one has started correctly in golf

Like Jim Furyk, Ryan Moore, Calvin Peete, Trevino....? 

[Jack Watson]

7 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Like Jim Furyk, Ryan Moore, Calvin Peete, Trevino....? 

Here's Calvin Peetes beautiful smooth stroke.  Jones wrote that a fundamental aspect of the swinging motion is that the power is applied steadily and smoothly and slowly like a playground swing from the top starting down.  Peete is a great example of this.  In fact all those players are good examples of smooth stroking.  Jones term.

To me Spieth is better the slower he starts down.  You can see it in his swing too-what Jones said.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Jack Watson

[billchao]

14 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Also,  interestingly he did mention that one can look at action photos of good players and show examples of positions that indicate proper motion.  However he also wrote that one must learn to identify the proper action by feel rather than sight.  So he wrote for teaching that he felt action photos did not help in the practical problem of getting a student to acquire the knack of swinging.

Fascinating compared to today where we send videos from our phones to our pros for analysis. 

Video and photography technology sucked back then, as it did for many years until recent years. It just wasn't capable of being used as an effective teaching tool.

The more you describe of Ernest Jones, the less I agree with him.

10 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Interesting you say use the body more than the hands.

Jones wrote about the body actions responding to the swinging action of the clubhead sensed through the hands not the body directing the clubhead.

That doesn't make any sense. The body controls the club. The club literally can only fall down to the ground due to gravity unless you use your body to move it. You're not moving your hands in a golf swing without moving your body.

Just look at how many tour pros begin rotating their bodies before their arms finish the backswing. That's not the body responding to the club swinging, it's the body initiating the downswing.

11 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Paraphrase here but he said that while turning the torso is an important aspect of the correct action that focusing on that turning will not help one to produce the proper action.

Everything you are describing is feel related, and feels aren't the same for all players. Some people need to feel more "armsy" in their swing while others feel more turn. You can't just use one person's feel and say this is how you're supposed to swing the club. Numerous PGA Tour players past and present have explicitly described their swings as body oriented, BTW, in complete contrast to everything you're saying.

---

I just read a little bit about Ernest Jones. He was a professional golfer, then lost part of his leg during the war, came back and found out he was still pretty good at golf, which caused him to question contemporary thinking about body function. I get it.

The problem is I see his success as a result of his athleticism and not a product of his supposed thought process. Some people are truly able to make athletic movements simply by making themselves do them. Most people can't and you can't just tell them to swing differently and expect them to actually do it.

I'd argue that a large part of instruction is flawed because it doesn't focus on body movements. Telling a guy who slices the ball to swing towards right field without teaching him how to move his body to make the club swing out more isn't likely going to fix his slice. "Oh you hook the ball? Learn to hit a slice" is not good instruction.

[Jack Watson]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

That doesn't make any sense. The body controls the club. The club literally can only fall down to the ground due to gravity unless you use your body to move it. You're not moving your hands in a golf swing without moving your body.

Just look at how many tour pros begin rotating their bodies before their arms finish the backswing. That's not the body responding to the club swinging, it's the body initiating the downswing.

Jones wrote of the power in a true swing radiating from the center.  He mentioned the legs being important power sources.

He never said you have to do xyz with the legs to make power.

[Vinsk]

4 hours ago, billchao said:

Jones wrote about the body actions responding to the swinging action of the clubhead sensed through the hands not the body directing the clubhead.

This is completely wrong. Sorry @Jack Watson, but you can't possibly believe this makes any sense. 'Body actions (like what?) responding to the swinging action of the club head (swung by what?) sensed through the hands not the body directing the club head. If you try to instruct someone to forget about how their body moves and focus on the 'sensation of the hands' you will get nowhere. Video CLEARLY shows every pro begins their downswing with their body, not their hands. In fact, most good golfers begin their downswing (with the body) before the backswing is even completed. This is a fact, not a feel. 

[Jack Watson]

On 6/19/2017 at 10:27 AM, iacas said:

im doesn't need to get into a position "because others who are good do it." He would improve if he got into that position because it would help him stop swinging out with a high(er) rate of closure/overtaking rate.

Interestingly Jones,  that I saw, never wrote once about 'release'  He wrote a lot about feeling the 'pull' of the clubhead during the proper action.  He never wrote that one releases the pull and allows the clubhead to fly out tangent to the arc.  So maybe this relates to the above somehow.  Again in swinging a weight on a string in a circle if you release there's no more circle.

10 hours ago, billchao said:

Video and photography technology sucked back then, as it did for many years until recent years. It just wasn't capable of being used as an effective teaching tool.

Regardless of technology looking at images is visual.  Jones said to succeed one had to learn to know the motion not visually but by feeling it.  He says that no one can do that for a person.  

10 hours ago, billchao said:

That doesn't make any sense. The body controls the club. The club literally can only fall down to the ground due to gravity unless you use your body to move it. You're not moving your hands in a golf swing without moving your body.

Just look at how many tour pros begin rotating their bodies before their arms finish the backswing. That's not the body responding to the club swinging, it's the body initiating the downswing.

Jones is very adamant that the attention/intention on the hands and clubhead and I am quite sure he would agree if alive that "you're not moving your hands in a golf swing without moving your body" He's very clear on this.

Jones wrote over and over not to copy others.  

IMO just because a body part does something in a good player in the swing at some point that does not necessarily mean they produced that motion by conscious effort on that part of the body.  Just my take Jones never said that.

10 hours ago, billchao said:

Everything you are describing is feel related, and feels aren't the same for all players.

It seems Jones idea of what need to be felt did not extend to 'more arms or more turn'  His whole concept was focusing on the implement not the body less hands of course.  

For an example let's say you and I had enjoyed 18 holes and arrived after at a party.  We go to the back of the car to get a container of beverages.  We both stand near the trunk of the car as it opens.  I reach in and grab the container and you say hand it to me I will carry that since you are a nice guy,  the question is did I have to think ok turn the shoulders and hips when I handed it to you?  Or,  did I simply grab it with my hands and hand it to you and everything with the body was subconscious?  

10 hours ago, billchao said:

The problem is I see his success as a result of his athleticism and not a product of his supposed thought process

Then how was he so effective at teaching others?  Certainly,  imo,  he knew what he was doing.

5 hours ago, Vinsk said:

. If you try to instruct someone to forget about how their body moves and focus on the 'sensation of the hands' you will get nowhere

One,  Jones never said it that way in writing.

Two,  I have personal experience telling a person who has never swung a golf club before to swing it with their hands and their body moved.  Multiple times.  

Imo most over the top crap slicing golfers who don't know how to swing move their body violently leading the downswing.  That's their whole problem.  Their body motion is totally out of sequence with the club motion.

Jones wrote adamantly the body must be responsive to the hands and what they are doing to the clubhead.  It's one of his most important fundamental ideas.

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Jack Watson
Word choice

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Interestingly Jones,  that I saw, never wrote once about 'release'

And I never wrote about "release" in the thing you quoted. Heck, I have a topic here called…

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

He wrote a lot about feeling the 'pull' of the clubhead during the proper action.  He never wrote that one releases the pull and allows the clubhead to fly out tangent to the arc.  So maybe this relates to the above somehow.  Again in swinging a weight on a string in a circle if you release there's no more circle.

I don't understand why you quoted me and then said this stuff.

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Jones said to succeed one had to learn to know the motion not visually but by feeling it.  He says that no one can do that for a person.

Nobody is saying that looking at pictures fixes the thing for the player. Nobody.

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Jones wrote over and over not to copy others.

For the sake of copying them, I agree. But good players do certain things.

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

IMO just because a body part does something in a good player in the swing at some point that does not necessarily mean they produced that motion by conscious effort on that part of the body.  Just my take Jones never said that.

Who says they had to consciously do it for it to matter? Good players do a lot of things unconsciously, but if you're a struggling player, you may have to do it consciously.

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

His whole concept was focusing on the implement not the body less hands of course.

The implement can only be swung by the body holding onto it.

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I reach in and grab the container and you say hand it to me I will carry that since you are a nice guy,  the question is did I have to think ok turn the shoulders and hips when I handed it to you?  Or,  did I simply grab it with my hands and hand it to you and everything with the body was subconscious?

Stupid example. Just as bad as the feeding yourself example earlier. Several orders of magnitude easier than swinging a golf club and hitting a golf ball.

Seriously, @Jack Watson, you're doing yourself no favors with this stuff.

4 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Then how was he so effective at teaching others?  Certainly,  imo,  he knew what he was doing.

I'm starting to doubt that he was that effective.

[JonMA1]

It's just a shame there are no videos of this Jones fellow available so that us modern golfers could emulate his mechanics.

[Vinsk]

23 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

wo,  I have personal experience telling a person who has never swung a golf club before to swing it with their hands and their body moved.  Multiple times.

OF course it moved. Correctly? Doubt it. 

23 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

mo most over the top crap slicing golfers who don't know how to swing move their body violently leading the downswing.  That's their whole problem.  Their body motion is totally out of sequence with the club motion.

I don't think this is accurate. @iacas has years of instruction experience so I'd like to get his input but I doubt the most common fault of over the top swingers is 'violent body motion leading the ds." Are you emphasizing 'violent' or are you actually suggesting the body shouldn't start the ds?

[Jack Watson]

Ah,  I forgot to mention Jones did emphasize something about the body!

I just ran across it;   at one point in the beginning chapters he mentioned the posture and he emphasized that if the address posture is lost during the motion the swinging action has been "destroyed."

Cant believe I missed that point the first time or two through.  The way he wrote it was almost as if this was so obvious to him to almost be a foregone conclusion.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I don't think this is accurate. @iacas has years of instruction experience so I'd like to get his input but I doubt the most common fault of over the top swingers is 'violent body motion leading the ds." Are you emphasizing 'violent' or are you actually suggesting the body shouldn't start the ds?

I wouldn't say it is. But again @Jack Watson has never claimed to be an instructor, so…

7 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I just ran across it;   at one point in the beginning chapters he mentioned the posture and he emphasized that if the address posture is lost during the motion the swinging action has been "destroyed."

That makes no sense to me. At no point in the rest of the golf swing does the player return to anything like address. And I understand that you're not saying the address position, but the address "posture," but still… that's vague. I can hit good shots starting with my feet together and stepping twice back and forward… etc.

The more you share of Ernest Jones' teaching the less I think there is there.

[Jack Watson]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

don't understand why you quoted me and then said this stuff.

I was just thinking about how if one is more open at impact it would have to have the path/face effect you alluded to.  That quality rotation of the torso seems to be very very common in great strikers.

Nick Price maybe not as much or Knudson,  but the vast majority do indeed have tremendous rotation like DJ or Rickie or Rory etc etc etc.  

 

 

[iacas]

Just now, Jack Watson said:

I was just thinking about how if one is more open at impact it would have to have the path/face effect you alluded to.  That quality rotation of the torso seems to be very very common in great strikers.

Which is why I said he's working on that because there are benefits to working on it, not because he's trying to copy anyone else.

[Jack Watson]

29 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

ding the ds." Are you emphasizing 'violent' or are you actually suggesting the body shouldn't start the ds?

It's obvious what happens in a good swing.  Not up for debate.