Thoughts about Shawn Clement Videos ?

[yanni]

Recently someone on this forum who struggled with his swing recommended 2 Shawn Clement youtube videos. I watched those 2 videos and this was quite a game changer for me. I watched tons of other videos most with complicated instructions and no focus on "the whole" swing idea. I always had the impression with all those little details I will never get it. Everything what he does is easy to learn and feels just natural. In his videos for the first time I was understanding the whole concept of the swing. Its not about concentrating on tons of stuff at the same time . Its just about a pretty natural movement. Which as a site effect improved my clubhead speed by 10mph. Just cause I am letting everything go now. This with the combination of recording myself on video really boosted my progress. I noticed he does tons of videos but repeats the basic concepts over and over again. I think this is NOT a bad thing. He sticks to the basics but shows them in different contexts. 

With my pro its like "correct this part. OK. now correct this part. OK". And at the end I don't cannot hit the ball anymore. But he never explained the whole, natural swing or the concept behind this to me. 

I wondering what others think about his videos and if anybody tried the premium content ? Don't really understand the difference to the free content which is already outstanding?

Edited July 27, 2017 by yanni

[RandallT]

Here's some older thoughts, but probably not what you're looking for:

I'll play devil's advocate here about your pro:

Maybe he was just trying to get you to focus on very simple, very specific things. Maybe he thought your natural inclination was to try to fix so many things at once that you were confusing yourself. Here are a couple threads about that:

But if your pro was filling a single lesson with lots of specific things (I wasn't sure from your description), then he was likely doing you a disservice. From what I've learned, most of us benefit from just one or two key things to work on between lessons.

Anyway, my warning about any of the online instructors is that we all have a tendency to gobble them all up and work on a lot at once. We try to learn everything on the planet about the golf swing and hope that a few things stick. Since we don't know our individual priorities, it is a shotgun approach. 

Maybe we improve at the start, but once we reach a plateau, my thought is that it'll take good coaching from then on to make progress. And that involves the concepts in the threads above. Identify the key thing holding you back- target it with deliberate practice. You won't get that level of individual instruction from the online instructors, as most of us do not know how to self-diagnose very well.

 

[yanni]

Quote

But if your pro was filling a single lesson with lots of specific things (I wasn't sure from your description), then he was likely doing you a disservice. From what I've learned, most of us benefit from just one or two key things to work on between lessons.

No those were max 1-2 topics per lesson. We only focussed on one thing. Lets say the swing plane. When this was right we worked on weight shift. I don't think he is a bad teacher. I am just missing seeing the whole concept. 

I think even more important for me is recording myself. The pro told me that I am casting as hell. And he gave me tipps like shift weight forward more to hit the ball as if I were to play tennis. I tried hard and thought I was not casting anymore. He made a recording and showed it to me. Still I was casting way to much.

Yesterday I did record myself again to see if the casting went away. Not at all. Now I did what Shawn said in his videos. "Dont hit the ball. Throw the club at the target". Also I tried to move right elbow more towards the target. To me this feels really extreme and not like a slight correction. But finally I can see that it looks correct on the video.

The main things I learn from Shawn is the basic body movement and the thoughts behind the strike  like "cutting the grass" "not hitting the ball". Those are more like general concepts. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by yanni

[RandallT]

For what it's worth, my first couple attempts at instruction were unsuccessful. I felt myself wanting to know the overall themes or approach that the instructor has in mind long-term- a roadmap of sorts. Otherwise, the details didn't fit together somehow. Probably the "N" aspect of my Myers-Briggs personality profile. I just felt like I was getting scattered, ever-changing, random tips with no underlying methodology.

After joining here, I learned the overall framework of 5SK, and that has really helped me put my lessons into context. The instruction I've gotten recently fits nicely into that framework, so it all aligns. I can also seek out additional content on whatever my priority is, since I know which "key" I'm working on, and there's plenty of related material around.

Anyway, I mention that to commiserate with you. Sounds like you got better ideas for feels from Clements teaching you some bigger picture thing and your instructor didn't quite provide you with what you needed to break through on that piece.  Feels are tricky, and each person definitely has their own set that work for them for any given issue.

I mainly wanted to chime in that my hesitancy for paying for premium content for sites like Clements is that it is not individual to you. At some point, finding the correct priority to work on is essential and while the content may be good for you, I'm not certain that receiving his "tip of the day" in premium content or whatever is what will maximize your growth as a golfer. It seems a haphazard way to learning, rather than someone targeting your swing directly.

I've had success with good individual instruction, once it matched my way of learning. But I recognize that we're all different.

[iacas]

I think there's nothing or very little "natural" about the golf swing or there would be little need for instruction of any kind.

I think Shawn is an okay instructor. I think his swing and the one he teaches is a bit goofy.  I think if you tell people to throw the club head at the ball they are more often than not going to have a terrible swing.

[Ernest Jones]

5 hours ago, yanni said:

Recently someone on this forum who struggled with his swing recommended 2 Shawn Clement youtube videos. I watched those 2 videos and this was quite a game changer for me. I watched tons of other videos most with complicated instructions and no focus on "the whole" swing idea. I always had the impression with all those little details I will never get it. Everything what he does is easy to learn and feels just natural. In his videos for the first time I was understanding the whole concept of the swing. Its not about concentrating on tons of stuff at the same time . Its just about a pretty natural movement. Which as a site effect improved my clubhead speed by 10mph. Just cause I am letting everything go now. This with the combination of recording myself on video really boosted my progress. I noticed he does tons of videos but repeats the basic concepts over and over again. I think this is NOT a bad thing. He sticks to the basics but shows them in different contexts. 

With my pro its like "correct this part. OK. now correct this part. OK". And at the end I don't cannot hit the ball anymore. But he never explained the whole, natural swing or the concept behind this to me. 

I wondering what others think about his videos and if anybody tried the premium content ? Don't really understand the difference to the free content which is already outstanding?

How much is the premium content? Does it allow for you to send in video of your swing and get specific instruction tailored to your priories and needs?

I would look into Evolvr before making the decision, because these guys coach you directly rather than just give you general things to work on. Maybe Shawn does too, I don't know, but do yourself a favour and look at Evolvr before pulling the trigger. 

[Vinsk]

15 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

How much is the premium content? Does it allow for you to send in video of your swing and get specific instruction tailored to your priories and needs?

I would look into Evolvr before making the decision, because these guys coach you directly rather than just give you general things to work on. Maybe Shawn does too, I don't know, but do yourself a favour and look at Evolvr before pulling the trigger. 

Hello friend. I paid for the premium content (sorry don't remember what I paid) and it's really just an organized view of his concepts/drills. Also, I actually worked with Shawn in person here in Florida. It was in all honesty quite a disappointment. Sometimes when we have been working on our golf swing in a particular style, routine..anything different can come along and kind of force, or encourage us (infamous light bulb moment) to 'change the picture'. Shawn did have 4 other students so we were 5 in total. However I was clearly asking direct meaningful questions and getting half-hearted and confusing responses. It was clear I really wanted to grasp his ideas and I explained how much time I spend on the range as well as my golf history in general. After 3 hours of discussion and swing work, my final 'evaluation' from Shawn was that I should play golf right handed and I should buy a grass whip and swing if every day for a month then 'get back to him.' After 2 weeks (I actually did spend a day at the range hitting balls right handed) I emailed him to discuss my believing that switching to right hand just isn't going to work for me and maybe he could offer some guidance on my current swing, etc...Come to find out he obviously has a robot-generated email service that produces generic responses. His reply to me was, "Hey Kevin! Great to hear from you! How's that power fade going? And yes, I clearly reminded him who I was in the email. Anyway, I think he makes some swing ideas that may be helpful for some and maybe you've connected with his material better than I. But for me, I can't say I care much for him.

[Jack Watson]

I've never taken a lesson from the guy.  He has a seemingly endless supply of you tube content.

From what I have seen on you tube,  there's a couple key videos where he shows good drills.  They are drills that have been around forever though.  

Some here would probably assume he would be right up my alley but my overall rating of his you tube content is meh.  

 

 

[alfriday]

Shawn Clement's teachings are actually very "old school."  He teaches the swing similarly to the way Ernest Jones, Manuel de la Torre, Harvey Penick, etc. taught the swing.  To me, it is a superior way to learn the swing.  

 

First, through analogies, he allows the student to understand that the golf swing is an athletic movement that is very similar to other athletic movements.  If you already know how to throw a ball, skip a stone or cast a fishing rod, you know the basics of the golf swing.  Second, he has drills (which have been around for a long time because they work) that reinforce the correct movements and (most importantly) let the student feel a swing.  The swing is taught as a whole.  Third, there is a mental aspect to the videos.  The emphasis is on swinging to the target.  The movements are swing focused, not ball focused.  The focus actually improves ball striking.  The student learns to play golf, not golf positions and body parts.   

 

I have found Shawn's approach very helpful.  In the past, I took numerous lessons, went to golf workshops, tried training aids, the whole nine yards.  Shawn's approach has been very liberating.  Using his drills and approach, I have gotten farther in the past 6 months that I did in the previous 6 years.  

 

The problem with Shawn's free video content is that it's not well organized.  I recommended Shawn to my son earlier in the year and organized the videos for him.  Here is a copy of the email I sent to my son:

 

"I rewatched a number of Shawn Clement's videos on YouTube. I finally have a list of his best videos for you. I put them in a rough order to make learning his approach easier. I have listed the name of the videos below. If you go to YouTube and search "Shawn Clement Video Name", the video should come up.

Intro videos/philosophy 

1. Golfers Over 40 Watch This. (Watch this even though you are not over 40. It is a good intro to his approach.)

2. Ridiculously Easy Golf Part I.

3. Ridiculously Easy Golf Part II.

4. K.I.S.S. Golf--Keep it Simple.

5. Feel the Weight of the Golf Swing.

6. Stop Overthinking Your Golf.

Process Videos

1. Best Video on the Grip Ever.

2. Knife the Grip.

3. Golf Grip and Wrist Hinge.

4. Set Up Posture to Swing to the Target.

5. Set Up all Clubs.

6. Understanding Weight Shift.

7. Takeaway and Starting Golf Swing.

8. Starting the Downswing.

9. Aiming, Alignment and Ball Position.

10. Body--Arms--Hands Timing in Golf Swing.

11. Swing Plane Update.

12. Rhythm in Golf Swing.

13. Tempo and Timing.

Specific Drills--a great way to learn the basics of the Swing. You can do these even if you haven't watched all the previous videos.

1. Fencing for Power in Golf.

2. Best Drill in Golf--Feet Together. ( if you can do this drill and the one foot dill, you are most the way to a good Swing).

3. Savvy Feet Together. (There are a number of Videos wth Savvy. These may help Kate to visualize how her Swing will look).

4. 2nd Best Drill in Golf--One Leg.

5. Perpetual Balance Drill.

6. Learn Golf Much Faster with this Drill. (Elephant Walk.)

7. Feet Together--One Leg Updates.

8. Feet Together Driver=Consistency.

9. Through the Ball Drills.

10. Spine Angle Kettle Bell Tips.

11. Amazing Lumberjack Sledgehammer Drill. Mental Approach to Golf--Play Golf, not Golf Swing

 

Mental approach.

1. How to Focus in Golf Part I.

2. How to Focus in Golf Part II.

3. Mental Game Baseball for Golf. (Introduces RIBS concept for evaluating shots in practice and play.)

4. Instinctive Practice.

A few additional videos for later. 

1. Eyes Closed for Solid Contact.

2. Throw that Club Straight.

3. Be Savvy When Throwing Clubs.

4. Savvy with Your Center.

It is important to understand Shawn's approach to the Swing and then move onto the basic drills. The process stuff refines the setup and grip, but the videos fit with the Drills. I move back and forth between drills and process to refine my shots. 

I mentioned that I don't use Shawn's pitching method. I use the "hinge and hold" method. 

Here is a basic video on how I pitch: 

"Pitching" by Erik Barzeski."

 

 

[yanni]

@Alfriday. This pretty much describes how I feel about the videos. And you don't have to watch all his 700 videos to get the concept ;) The concept is pretty straight forward actually.

Thanks a lot for the list. This helps !

Edited July 27, 2017 by yanni

[iacas]

@alfriday you didn't respond to my earlier questioning/disagreement of the points you made, so my hopes are low for this one. And maybe, since you like my pitching video, you are speaking generally and not about the way I teach… and it's also fine by me if you eventually still disagree. But I was hoping for a response, so here goes again. 

5 hours ago, alfriday said:

First, through analogies, he allows the student to understand that the golf swing is an athletic movement that is very similar to other athletic movements.

Like what? I can't think of any, really. There are some little things, like skipping a rock that apply to small pieces of a golf swing, but the golf swing as a whole - how you like to look at it, I think - is not like any other athletic moves.

Not to mention… many people are bad at sports - or athletics. Just watch people try to throw a baseball. They step with the wrong foot, thrust their shoulder forward, don't know how to use their hips… the works. Look at people throwing out the first pitch at baseball games. Even athletes from other sports sometimes look stupid bad.

5 hours ago, alfriday said:

If you already know how to throw a ball, skip a stone or cast a fishing rod, you know the basics of the golf swing.

Yeah, no, I disagree.

Plus, there are a lot of people who cannot skip a stone very well.

Skipping a stone (I should read ahead) is great if you're trying to work on "pitch elbow" but it's way, way, WAY simpler than "here's a 6-iron and you've got a tight lie here with the ball also a few inches above your feet, and there's a 20-yard wide circle up there 180 yards away… good luck."

It's not even close.

And here's the thing - the crux of where you and I might disagree - is that what you see as these "basics" are just the things I teach, too. When you talk about "skipping a stone" you're talking (probably) about helping someone go more "pitch elbow." It's about the trail wrist, the trail elbow, and where they feel they have to go to improve the mechanics of that specific small piece of the swing.

You've stated that you think the golf swing should be taught as a whole, and Ernest Jones is a very "swing the clubhead" type of guy. But what I hear when I see stuff like that is… what if telling someone to "swing the clubhead" doesn't work? What if they "swing the clubhead" poorly? Then you have to work on pieces of the golf swing, specific mechanics… which you seem adamant is "A Very Bad Thing™". No?

5 hours ago, alfriday said:

The swing is taught as a whole.

How is this video "teaching the swing as a whole"?

To me it's teaching a piece - mechanics - regarding how the hips work in the golf swing. It's very similar to my "wall drill."

Again, maybe we differ somehow that I'm not perceiving, but this feels very much like he's not working on the swing as a whole - he's not really talking about your arms, your left shoulder, PA #3, how quickly you hinge the club or not, whether you roll your forearms too much in the backswing… blah blah blah… but he is talking about a very small, specific piece - how the hips work in the backswing and downswing. You could make these hip motions while having your arms folded across your chest and not even swinging anything.

5 hours ago, alfriday said:

Third, there is a mental aspect to the videos.  The emphasis is on swinging to the target.  The movements are swing focused, not ball focused.  The focus actually improves ball striking.  The student learns to play golf, not golf positions and body parts.

Huh? How is the video above a good example of that?

He asks the student (correctly, IMO) to think about how their handkerchiefs are working. The focus is on their ass cheeks and a wall or mirror behind them. It's not got anything to do with the target, or "learning to play golf" while NOT thinking about "golf positions and body parts." The whole video is "golf positions and body parts."

5 hours ago, alfriday said:

I mentioned that I don't use Shawn's pitching method. I use the "hinge and hold" method. 

Here is a basic video on how I pitch: 

"Pitching" by Erik Barzeski."

Thank you.

[Hacker James]

Regarding Shawn Clement. I followed him for a short while and I can see how his instruction might be helpful for certain people. He has some great tips and illustrations of "how" to perform certain actions that may or may not resonate depending on the individual. What he does not do however, is give one a good reason why and it is left up to the student to figure out.  Granted he also employs a couple of just plain weird  interpretations one of which is his comparison to a downhill skier's bobbing motion. I understand why he uses this, but also could be easily misconstrued by most. His main objective appears to get someone into position to repeat some basic moves. His practicing the "one leg" swing for example is all about not swaying. The bobbing motion is akin to dropping into the slot on the downswing. Either of these two could get you into trouble if you do not understand what you are trying to achieve. He really does not do a good job of explaining why and just goes on the assumption that you "get it". That being said, his methods work very well for some and I truly believe he is good at what he does.

He is not alone in this. There are a number of instructors that seem to have taken ownership of a one-size-fits-all piece of instruction and they focus mainly on just a few points. One emphasizes "powerless arms" another "body pivot". This is not to say they do not have other really good bits, but these are the most prevalent and can be seen repeating in many of the different videos they put out.

I have a favorite, but won't espouse my preference here. Its just that I understand immediately what he is trying to get across and his delivery is one that works for me. He can be very simple, yet if needed, as technical as any.

Anyway...my views. Yours may differ and that's okay too,

[Jack Watson]

I think the Hogan power move video is an example of Clement where he's not wrong but the focus is not helpful to me and Clement is not inline at all with EJ here.  To me it's a meh.

My right hip pocket slides forward even though from dtl my right leg does not obviously straighten.  (Clement mentions in the video straightening the right leg too much is a fault-his opinion and one I share-blasphemy here but anyways).

 The action is very visible from butt check view.  The right femur at hip joint and right hip girdle move forward on the bs a bit as he says.  Where I have a tough time technically is that when my left hip begins to clear it sucks my head forward a bit.  My old pro said that the hip to shoulder turn ratio flashes through a differential in transition (Hogans torquing from 5l which I think is hard on the spine) and I told him I can't try to work on it because I need to keep my spine from twisting.  IMO safety first and I hate Hogans thoughts on this as written in 5l.  I don't like having the hips turning and shoulders staying.   I don't like twisting the spine.  (As neutral a spine angle as possible is a safer spine period-just look up safe lifting technique videos and relate it to golf.) I also don't restrict my hips on bs.  This disagreement on transition pretty much led to our 'breakup'.  TBH for me as a tennis player for many years my bread and butter in both singles and doubles was a twist serve like Edberg used.  Very very effective and allows one time to close to the net but imo stressful on the back.  Your whole body is a ground up jumping twisting whiplash in that motion with a ton of bend and twist so I worry about my discs.  It's pretty cool though in an ad court in doubles when you can spin the ball into a side fence and unless the opponent short hops it unreturnable.  I've run quite a few players into side fences for aces lol.   I've also switched to a flatter slice serve down the middle and aced them where they never moved towards the ball haha.  

A couple years ago golfing I felt some disc pain right in the middle of my spine so I went to more of a right hand push or throw without spine twist or at least minimizing to help prevent injury.  Been really good ever since no pain after playing with what I do.  Knock on wood.  No pull from the left for me.  Limited ceiling?  Yes.  Safety is most important to me.  Golf creates a lot of force.

That said I simply can't put Clement in the same league as EJ  or even the modified EJ (De La Torre).  He's a meh.  

I just don't think from watching what I have seen that he's truly able to teach in the simplest way possible.  He often segues into a bunch of irrelevance in his you tube.  I kinda question how effective he really is,  jmo.

I am into EJ but I have also worked on mechanics.  Ultimately one needs both if one is developing the game,  however when playing it's an EJ thing all the way for me.

Cheers all!

 

 

 

[JonMA1]

If a swing thought or feel can help folks create a better swing, that seems to be what's most important. While I've never gotten anything from his videos, he seems to be quite popular to many others who claim his instruction has brought about positive change.

[iacas]

All in a spoiler because, while I wanted to respond, it was off the main topic, so…

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

My right hip pocket slides forward even though from dtl my right leg does not obviously straighten.  (Clement mentions in the video straightening the right leg too much is a fault-his opinion and one I share-blasphemy here but anyways).

You are wrong, and frankly, this shows how little you understand about what it is I teach, how nuanced things can be, etc.

I warn players all the time of over-extending.

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

Where I have a tough time technically is that when my left hip begins to clear it sucks my head forward a bit.

Dude, your hip doesn't clear:

And your head is going forward well before your hip (doesn't) "clear."

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

I also don't restrict my hips on bs.

You do, actually, which is part of the reason you're only able to get about 70° of what we typically measure as "shoulder turn."

So in @Jack Watson's opinion, EJ > DLT > SC. Okay.

[CR McDivot]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

I think there's nothing or very little "natural" about the golf swing or there would be little need for instruction of any kind.

I think Shawn is an okay instructor. I think his swing and the one he teaches is a bit goofy.  I think if you tell people to throw the club head at the ball they are more often than not going to have a terrible swing.

Shawn does not teach throwing the club at the ball, rather that good contact with the ball is an incidental effect of throwing the club at the target.

To those who are pursuing mechanical precision through positions Shawn is not your guy.

To those who see the golf swing as a dynamic movement, more akin to an art or skill than a science, Shawn has a lot to offer.

Different strokes for different folks!

[iacas]

56 minutes ago, CR McDivot said:

Shawn does not teach throwing the club at the ball, rather that good contact with the ball is an incidental effect of throwing the club at the target.

To those who are pursuing mechanical precision through positions Shawn is not your guy.

To those who see the golf swing as a dynamic movement, more akin to an art or skill than a science, Shawn has a lot to offer.

Different strokes for different folks!

Yeah, I don't know anymore… People keep saying stuff like this, and yet… what? He still has videos on mechanics. He still talks about mechanics.

[mvmac]

I've only watched a few of his videos and would agree they're "ok"....depending on the piece. I do give him credit for trying to come up with simple, relatable feels and cues for certain parts of the swing.

As anything with golf instruction online, just make sure the advice your getting has something to do with your priority piece.