Girl Loses U.S. Junior Match After Raking Back Short Putt

[Hardspoon]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

Yea, that is kinda what I am thinking I would have done as well. I am not sure what I would say or do if I noticed the opponent do what Moon did. I probably mention the same thing, that I didn't concede the putt.

Again, her coach did ask her right away.  If you watch the video, she hesitated for a few seconds at most.  At her age, I can't imagine that situation has come up before, so I really don't blame her at all for not realizing what was going on and quickly lying.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I didn't quote it, because you edited it...  

No, I made another post that was merged. Before your post was made. But whatever.

5 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I know of no place in the rules where it specifies exactly what needs to be done in order to concede a hole.  

Turning away is not a concession. A player might turn away for hundreds of reasons. Like she has to sneeze. Or gasp. Or the sun is in her eyes. Or whatever.

[David in FL]

Just now, iacas said:

No, I made another post that was merged. Before your post.

Turning away is not a concession. A player might turn away for hundreds of reasons. Like she has to sneeze. Or gasp. Or the sun is in her eyes. Or whatever.

Or because she conceded.  It's a concession if she says it was a concession.

I would have said that I conceded the putt.  I don't necessarily fault Shepherd for not doing so though, and she probably isn't deserving of the "asshole" comment...

...though that particular lesson still needs to be learned at a young age.  

 

 

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Again, her coach did ask her right away.  If you watch the video, she hesitated for a few seconds at most.  At her age, I can't imagine that situation has come up before, so I really don't blame her at all for not realizing what was going on and quickly lying.

Are you sure that's the order?  Sounds to me like the coach asks her after she speaks up first with "I didn't give you that."

 

1 minute ago, David in FL said:

Or because she conceded.  It's a concession if she says it was a concession.

I would have said that I conceded the putt.  I don't necessarily fault Shepherd for not doing so though, and she probably isn't deserving of the "asshole" comment...

...though that particular lesson still needs to be learned at a young age.  

 

 

Yeah maybe asshole is too harsh - but I'm with you on this.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Or because she conceded.  It's a concession if she says it was a concession.

Nah. Turning away is not a concession.

I already said what would happen if she turned away and basically never claimed otherwise.

In the Solheim Cup a player turned away. But because the concession was not granted, the side could say honestly "we never conceded that." They hadn't.

Turning away is not a concession.

8 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I would have said that I conceded the putt.

Cool.

I would have actually conceded the putt.

[Hardspoon]

15 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Are you sure that's the order?  Sounds to me like the coach asks her after she speaks up first with "I didn't give you that."

Hmm.  I'm now analyzing this like it's the Zapruder film.

You don't hear the coach on video...and yes, I agree, the first thing you hear is her saying "I didn't say that was good."  Based on the text of the article, I assumed the coach asked her first, but off-camera.  Maybe not.

The concession thing is interesting.

Decision 2-4/4 says that picking up an opponent's ball isn't a concession...and 2-4/5 says that picking up their ball marker isn't a concession either.  2-4/17 has another instance of an "action" not being a concession.  2-4/13 makes it clear that a statement like "Let's move on to the next hole" is an implied concession.  So...based on the decisions, it seems like it has to be something verbal?

45 minutes ago, iacas said:

You can motion "pick it up" or tap it away yourself or whatever.

Are you sure you can tap it away?  Doesn't that conflict with Decision 2-4/4?  Or is it about implied intent?

Honestly, I'm surprised there isn't a Decision dealing with exactly this situation.

15 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Yeah maybe asshole is too harsh

 

16 minutes ago, David in FL said:

she probably isn't deserving of the "asshole" comment...

Come on...this girl is 16 (17?) years old...I don't think you guys need to equivocate...

Edited July 29, 2017 by Hardspoon

[Golfingdad]

3 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

...and 2-4/5 says that picking up their ball marker isn't a concession either.

Wow, really?  Am I crazy or does this happen all the time?  I swear I've seen it a bunch.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Are you sure you can tap it away?  Doesn't that conflict with Decision 2-4/4?  Or is it about implied intent?

Honestly, I'm surprised there isn't a Decision dealing with exactly this situation.

That would fall under the bit I wrote about not lodging a claim. Plus in that case the opponent moved the ball, not the player. Very different than assuming turning away means something. As we saw in the Solheim Cup, it does not.

Just now, Golfingdad said:

Wow, really?  Am I crazy or does this happen all the time?  I swear I've seen it a bunch.

It counts if both basically assume it does and play the next hole.

If you want to be "safe" always verbalize or ask.

[Hardspoon]

Quote

2-4/4: Whether Picking Up Opponent's Ball Is Concession of Next Stroke

Q. In match play, A holes a putt and, thinking he has won the match, picks up B's ball. B then advises A that he (B) had a putt to win the hole. Did A concede B's next stroke when he picked up B's ball?

A. No. A incurred a penalty stroke under Rule 18-3b; B must replace his ball and now has two putts to win the hole.

2-4/5: Whether Lifting Opponent's Ball-Marker Is Concession of Next Stroke

Q. In a match, A believing he has won a hole picks up the coin marking the position of his opponent B's ball. In fact B had a putt to halve the hole. Should the picking up of B's ball-marker be considered a concession of B's next stroke?

A. No. In equity (Rule 1-4), A should be penalized one stroke. Therefore, under the second paragraph of Rule 2-2 the hole is automatically halved.

It's ambiguous, because both of these Decisions conflate an intent ("believing he has won a hole" and "thinking he has won the match") with an action.  Do those intents affect the Decision?  The titles imply that the intent doesn't matter, even though the intent is confusingly mentioned in each case.

What if I intend to concede a hole and pick up an opponent's ball?  Is that then a concession?

Edited July 29, 2017 by Hardspoon

[shortstop20]

Never rake back a putt that hasn't been given with a solid verbal confirmation. 

Far too many golfers are loose with this, it's too bad this girl had to learn it the hard way.

You can bet she won't forget again though. 

[Vinsk]

I thought it was common playing ethics that you don't walk away from a hole until your opponent has finished? I thought in a match play you walking away and not watching your opponent make a 5" putt means you're implying the hole is over? I understand that the rules indicate the concede must be signaled, but it seems to me you turning your back and walking away implied you consider the hole completed.

[David in FL]

46 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

 

What if I intend to concede a hole and pick up an opponent's ball?  Is that then a concession?

Yes.  Anything you do to concede is ok, if you mean it to be.  

The difference in the 2 decisions you reference is that the player was not conceding the putt, but was under the incorrect impression that the hole was already over.  It wasn't.  Therefore it had to be finished, with the appropriate penalty applied.

[Vinsk]

10 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I thought it was common playing ethics that you don't walk away from a hole until your opponent has finished? I thought in a match play you walking away and not watching your opponent make a 5" putt means you're implying the hole is over? I understand that the rules indicate the concede must be signaled, but it seems to me you turning your back and walking away implied you consider the hole completed.

I admit I hadn't seen the video when I posted this (couldn't pull it up at work). Yeah, Moon blundered...tough break. 

[DaveP043]

I've watched this, and its really an unfortunate lesson to learn at such a high-level competition.  Its a lesson I learned a while ago.  I concede putts or holes loudly and clearly "That putt's good, pick it up."  and if I don't hear a similarly worded concession from an opponent, I'm not shy about asking to make it clear.  Of course, I've been playing match play pretty much every weekend for 30 years or more, and these young ladies may be in one of their first match play events.

[Zeph]

We had a similar discussion around what is a conceeded putt and not in the Solheim Cup with Suzann Pettersen. Just like you are responsible for following the rules yourself, you are responsible for making sure a putt is conceeded before picking it up. There's no doubt she would conceed it, but Moon never even looked at Shepherd. What does it matter where Shepherd turned or what she did if Moon didn't even look in her direction? She hit the putt, missed, assumed it was conceeded and pulled it back, without ever looking towards Shepherd. Without any audible cue, how can Moon know that it's been conceeded?

It's a tough lesson to learn, but I think it's a good one if someone has a habit of assuming putts are conceeded.

Just now, DaveP043 said:

I've watched this, and its really an unfortunate lesson to learn at such a high-level competition.  Its a lesson I learned a while ago.  I concede putts or holes loudly and clearly "That putt's good, pick it up."  and if I don't hear a similarly worded concession from an opponent, I'm not shy about asking to make it clear.  Of course, I've been playing match play pretty much every weekend for 30 years or more, and these young ladies may be in one of their first match play events.

I now imagined you walking around with a megaphone on the green. "THAT PUTT IS GOOD, PICK IT UP!". Usually with the opponent no more than a few yards away.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Zeph

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, Zeph said:

I now imagined you walking around with a megaphone on the green. "THAT PUTT IS GOOD, PICK IT UP!". Usually with the opponent no more than a few yards away.

  I say loud and clear because a lot of times a concession is mumbled as a player turns away.  Those are the times I ask to make certain.  I just make sure to say it clearly enough and loudly enough that my opponent doesn't have any doubt as to my intentions.  

[saevel25]

12 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I thought it was common playing ethics that you don't walk away from a hole until your opponent has finished?

Not really. It happens more often then you think. I can probably find examples in every round on the PGA Tour were this happens. 

12 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I thought in a match play you walking away and not watching your opponent make a 5" putt means you're implying the hole is over? 

No, and there is no were in the rules that state such a thing. You actually have to indicate to them that it was good before they make the stroke. 

12 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I understand that the rules indicate the concede must be signaled, but it seems to me you turning your back and walking away implied you consider the hole completed.

Nope, and it is way to presumptuous to assume such. It might be common place with the friends you play with, but I never heard of such a thing. If someone I know takes forever to read a putt I will start walking to my bag. I am in no way conceding the putt. 

13 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

What if I intend to concede a hole and pick up an opponent's ball?  Is that then a concession?

I would say it depends on the order of operations. If you pick up the coin, with out first stating you concede the hole or next shot, then you get a penalty. If you state that you concede the next shot or the hole, then it would be OK to pick up the mark or ball because the hole is officially over. 

13 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

The titles imply that the intent doesn't matter, even though the intent is confusingly mentioned in each case.

I agree. A golfer should make it clear that the hole or shot is conceded. 

12 hours ago, David in FL said:

The difference in the 2 decisions you reference is that the player was not conceding the putt, but was under the incorrect impression that the hole was already over.  It wasn't.  Therefore it had to be finished, with the appropriate penalty applied.

I believe this to be wrong. You can't assume that the other golfer knows your intent. If a golfer wanted to they could claim they didn't and give you a penalty. 

In the end it is the golfers job to be crystal clear about their intent. It isn't fair for the other golfer to have to try to read the intent of another golfer's actions.  

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't hear a similarly worded concession from an opponent, I'm not shy about asking to make it clear. 

I never ask if it was good or not, unless I really think I hear them say "That's good". 

[David in FL]

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 

I believe this to be wrong. You can't assume that the other golfer knows your intent. If a golfer wanted to they could claim they didn't and give you a penalty. 

 

Huh?  Are you questioning my response to the decisions?  Those are both very clear.  No ambiguity at all....