League Players vs Regular Players - Etiquette

[chilepepper]

On 8/12/2017 at 3:32 PM, colin007 said:

Yeah, pretty much this. A few times recently we have come up on the last league group, and can see that they have fallen behind and there's room to play thru, but they act like they own the course and won't allow people to play thru them.

Whether it's a league or not when you come up on a slow group, and the course is full, where are you going to play through to? Who is the slow group? Last group? Middle group? Some group in front? Playing through is all well and good only if there are open holes

[colin007]

2 hours ago, chilepepper said:

Whether it's a league or not when you come up on a slow group, and the course is full, where are you going to play through to? Who is the slow group? Last group? Middle group? Some group in front? Playing through is all well and good only if there are open holes

In the quote you use, I mentioned that there are holes open to play thru to.

[Elmer]

On 8/11/2017 at 4:44 PM, colin007 said:

So basically, if I am in the first group that goes out after the leagues go out, and we come to the back of the league and we ask to play through, and they tell us "we can't let you go because we are a league" and I called the pro shop and the pro shop says "it's a league there's nothing we can do", I'm SOL? 

I play in a league of 60 members, we have the front/back tee each week blocked from 3-5 pm.
The only way a non-leaguer gets out before 5 is if all the league member are already on the course. Summer tends to have lighter traffic so not many of us are teeing off at 5, however there is a 3 group women's league that follows us.
On the opposite side of the course there is at least 2-3 leagues. This goes on for 18 weeks and we spend a lot of money at the 19th hole and with the cart girl. We have been doing this for nearly 50 years, Therefore the course is going to allow us to play a little slower if we need to. 
From my experience league members are not only playing for points in the league, but there can be side bets going as well.
I will say that pace of play is a major talking point in my league. While I am not a slow player I have a golfer in my flight that is insanely slow. Each and every week he is taking his time with each shot, reading the breaks on the green like it was the 18th of the Masters.
 Since I have to play with him nearly every week, we are typically a hole behind. The president of the league will remind us (the slow guy does not go to the 19th) about slow play.
But realistically what is the course going to do, kick us off?
What are you going to do, play through and make us wait on you?

If you want to play golf on a weekday, tee off before 2:30 or after 5:30.
But once again the course is making way more money off league members in 1 day as it gets from one group of golfers stuck behind slow league players

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Elmer

[Kalnoky]

Interesting timing, I just had a similar experience. There's a local course I love but won't play anymore because there is a huge men's league (90% retirees) that tees off every day at 11am, stops at the turn for lunch and beers, and then plays the back 9 at half speed. You can't play through because there's so many of them you'd be playing through on every hole... and besides, they don't exactly offer to let you play through. Of course, the starter won't let you go off the back 9 because he doesn't want you cutting any of the groups off.. Of course the liar was happy to take my money, after reassuring me "none of these guys is higher than a 12, and anything less than 3 feet they pick up". It doesn't matter how good a group of players is, when there are so many of them, it is painfully slow going. The last couple of times I walked off without finishing. I've learned my lesson and will not go back there.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Kalnoky

[Fourputt]

 

On 8/11/2017 at 2:44 PM, colin007 said:

So basically, if I am in the first group that goes out after the leagues go out, and we come to the back of the league and we ask to play through, and they tell us "we can't let you go because we are a league" and I called the pro shop and the pro shop says "it's a league there's nothing we can do", I'm SOL? 

If the league has the next 7 or 8 holes occupied, then It's just like any other time when the course is full ahead of you - you suck it up and live with it.  It's not much fun following a bunch of foursomes when you are a single or twosome, but sometimes you don't have a choice.  

[colin007]

I guess what I'm really railing against is the sense of entitlement these assclowns seem to have. They really do act like they own the course.

And another point, most of the leagues around here play at reduced prices. At one course they play $10 for 9 holes while the rest of us schmucks pay $18.

[krupa]

On 8/11/2017 at 4:44 PM, colin007 said:

So basically, if I am in the first group that goes out after the leagues go out, and we come to the back of the league and we ask to play through, and they tell us "we can't let you go because we are a league" and I called the pro shop and the pro shop says "it's a league there's nothing we can do", I'm SOL? 

It sounds like the only thing you can do is tell the pro shop that you're taking your golf someplace else.

At my local course, the leagues stay on 9 holes, leaving the other 9 open for play.  

[Jeremie Boop]

I never expect to be let through if I play behind a league, even though there's been several times where I get stuck behind a group that started late and had literally 2 full holes open in front of them. Even playing a couple balls I'll still sometimes end up closer to them than they like. Of course I get the obligatory "it's going to be slow for, we are in a league" comment. Obviously the course is going to favor the league though, because as previously stated, because they are getting a consistent and sometimes quite large income from them. Especially during the week when tee times are much less likely to be sold out, they can't afford to lose that guaranteed income from leagues.

[colin007]

22 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I never expect to be let through if I play behind a league, even though there's been several times where I get stuck behind a group that started late and had literally 2 full holes open in front of them.

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about.

[Zekez]

1 hour ago, colin007 said:

I guess what I'm really railing against is the sense of entitlement these assclowns seem to have. They really do act like they own the course.

And another point, most of the leagues around here play at reduced prices. At one course they play $10 for 9 holes while the rest of us schmucks pay $18.

You are looking at it strictly through your lens.  How many times a year do you play the course as compared to the league members?  How can you fault any course for catering to leagues, as that's their main source of income.

Stop going to the course when there are leagues playing is all that i can suggest.

[colin007]

15 minutes ago, Zekez said:

You are looking at it strictly through your lens.  How many times a year do you play the course as compared to the league members?  How can you fault any course for catering to leagues, as that's their main source of income.

Stop going to the course when there are leagues playing is all that i can suggest.

So then you agree that leagues don't have to follow the etiquette that the rest of us try to follow?

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, colin007 said:

So then you agree that leagues don't have to follow the etiquette that the rest of us try to follow?

League golfers SHOULD follow normal etiquette, just like every other golfer should.  Because they bring such a steady revenue revenue stream, the course management rarely forces them to.  So from that standpoint, they don't have to.  They're not being forced or policed.  And that makes financial sense for the course.  Is this right, from an etiquette sense? No!  But its reality.  

[Zekez]

If the etiquette that you are referring to is to let groups play through, then I guess I can see the league members not doing that.  I do see your point about slower league groups allowing non-league groups to play through, but if they don't, it wouldn't bother me.  

I don't go to play courses when leagues are playing. Simple as that for me, as i have enough courses around me to pick and choose.  Your mileage may vary.

As for all other etiquette, they most certainly should follow all other etiquette.  

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

League golfers SHOULD follow normal etiquette, just like every other golfer should.  Because they bring such a steady revenue revenue stream, the course management rarely forces them to.  So from that standpoint, they don't have to.  They're not being forced or policed.  And that makes financial sense for the course.  Is this right, from an etiquette sense? No!  But its reality.  

You said it much more eloquently than i did!

[todgot]

I see your point but, depending on the situation, it's a little unrealistic.  The league I play in has 24 teams in 2 divisions... one division plays the front nine while the other plays the back and then they switch 9's every other week.  If you play through my group you aren't going anywhere... then in 1 or 2 holes I will be waiting on you.  Nothing is more aggravating then letting a group play through and then having to wait for them.  How may people are in your group?  Are you a single?  There are also other factors to consider.... the format we're playing changes every week... best 2 balls net, best 2 balls gross, 4 balls net or gross, chapman, shamble, Red, white and blue,  etc.  Some formats might slow play down... or speed it up. 

To me it's kinda like playing behind a Charity Scramble and complaining they're playing too slow and won't let you play through.  It's golf but a special circumstance... for that block of time they own the course.  I would fault the course management for not making it abundantly clear the situation before giving you a tee time.   

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I never expect to be let through if I play behind a league, even though there's been several times where I get stuck behind a group that started late and had literally 2 full holes open in front of them. Even playing a couple balls I'll still sometimes end up closer to them than they like. Of course I get the obligatory "it's going to be slow for, we are in a league" comment. Obviously the course is going to favor the league though, because as previously stated, because they are getting a consistent and sometimes quite large income from them. Especially during the week when tee times are much less likely to be sold out, they can't afford to lose that guaranteed income from leagues.

I do have an issue with this.  There is absolutely NO REASON to play slow just because you are in a league, and the course shouldn't allow it either.  Pace of play policies should be in effect no matter why you are there to play.  I play in a tournament men's club, and we have a pace of play policy, and we penalize for breaching it.  The course has nothing to do with it - we are self-policing.

[Jeremie Boop]

4 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I do have an issue with this.  There is absolutely NO REASON to play slow just because you are in a league, and the course shouldn't allow it either.  Pace of play policies should be in effect no matter why you are there to play.  I play in a tournament men's club, and we have a pace of play policy, and we penalize for breaching it.  The course has nothing to do with it - we are self-policing.

I agree mostly, however when I'm playing during the week it's almost always as a single. Whether it was league or just a full course it would be just as slow. However, when they are 2+ holes behind the people in front of them there really is no legitimate excuse not to let someone play through, but I've never bothered to push that stance.

[Elmer]

2 hours ago, colin007 said:

I guess what I'm really railing against is the sense of entitlement these assclowns seem to have. They really do act like they own the course.

And another point, most of the leagues around here play at reduced prices. At one course they play $10 for 9 holes while the rest of us schmucks pay $18.

 

32 minutes ago, colin007 said:

So then you agree that leagues don't have to follow the etiquette that the rest of us try to follow?

I know my course requires the league to pay in full by April 1st.
That means just my league alone is handing over $16,000 just for greens fees. Assuming 1/2 the guys rent a cart, another $6000 during the season.
And alot of the league members show up to play an early 9, which is another green fee & cart.
Not to mention what we spend on drinks from the cart girl during the round and food and drink after each round.
Plus the greens/cart fees during a charity round we host with other leagues, add in more pizza & beer
 All this is just for 1 league and 1 night. We know that there is a league or 2 or 3 on the course every week night.
Therefore, should league members allow you to play through and then have to wait on you if you play slow? If you loose a ball? If you get to the fairway and realize you have a lost ball and have to trek back to the TEE.

Leagues make the courses a lot of money a lot more than 1 guy who paid $18 for 9 holes, even if you buy a beer on the course and after. 

Leagues pay out good money to have the tee blocked for a specific time, so maybe they do own the course for those few hours.

[Zekez]

3 hours ago, Kalnoky said:

Interesting timing, I just had a similar experience. There's a local course I love but won't play anymore because there is a huge men's league (90% retirees) that tees off every day at 11am, stops at the turn for lunch and beers, and then plays the back 9 at half speed. You can't play through because there's so many of them you'd be playing through on every hole... and besides, they don't exactly offer to let you play through. Of course, the starter won't let you go off the back 9 because he doesn't want you cutting any of the groups off.. Of course the liar was happy to take my money, after reassuring me "none of these guys is higher than a 12, and anything less than 3 feet they pick up". It doesn't matter how good a group of players is, when there are so many of them, it is painfully slow going. The last couple of times I walked off without finishing. I've learned my lesson and will not go back there.

I hate to be harsh, but i doubt the course will miss you.

16 minutes ago, Elmer said:

 

I know my course requires the league to pay in full by April 1st.
That means just my league alone is handing over $16,000 just for greens fees. Assuming 1/2 the guys rent a cart, another $6000 during the season.
And alot of the league members show up to play an early 9, which is another green fee & cart.
Not to mention what we spend on drinks from the cart girl during the round and food and drink after each round.
Plus the greens/cart fees during a charity round we host with other leagues, add in more pizza & beer
 All this is just for 1 league and 1 night. We know that there is a league or 2 or 3 on the course every week night.
Therefore, should league members allow you to play through and then have to wait on you if you play slow? If you loose a ball? If you get to the fairway and realize you have a lost ball and have to trek back to the TEE.

Leagues make the courses a lot of money a lot more than 1 guy who paid $18 for 9 holes, even if you buy a beer on the course and after. 

Leagues pay out good money to have the tee blocked for a specific time, so maybe they do own the course for those few hours.

AMEN brutha!!