The Golf Ball "Problem": PGA Tour Players Hitting it Far is a Problem for All of Golf?

[NJpatbee]

I personally do not think that anything needs to be done and the last thing I want to see is bifurcation.  If they roll back the ball I will go along with it and perhaps move up a tee if I have to.  If the USGA/R&A go after the clubs I will not go out and buy all new clubs if they do not conform.  This could  definitely be a mess but we will have to wait and see what they come up with.  I am a USGA member and will be contacting the rules committee for what its worth.

[Pretzel]

On 2/14/2018 at 8:15 PM, lastings said:

Not to mention Pebble Beach, and Augusta at the Masters.  Obviously, it’s not killing every course, but there are a lot of courses that could never host a tour event again. 

They said that about Merion because it couldn't stretch to longer than 7,000 yards. Then they hosted the U.S. Open there and the winner, Justin Rose, couldn't break par over the 4 days (he ended up +1). This argument is bunk, the only courses that are "obsolete" are courses that had few interesting features to begin with and relied upon being longer than other old courses were.

The courses that have interesting and challenging features will still be challenging, difficult, and tour-worthy even when players hit the ball further because the challenge of golf isn't all about the length of the course. I play one course near me that's very narrow and tree lined with plenty of dog legs, but only about 3,300 per side and I score similarly there as I do a wide open 7,200 yard course in the same city. The short course is designed so that the challenge isn't in the length of the course, but the shape of it and how you plan to navigate the small and sloping greens. 

[Missouri Swede]

Nicklaus weighing in again, saying he's complained to the USGA for 40 years http://golfweek.com/2018/02/20/usga-mike-davis-jack-nicklaus-talk-reduced-flight-golf-ball/

Quote

“I said, ‘That’s fine. I’m happy to help you. I’ve only been yelling at you for 40 years.’ 1977 is the first time I went to the USGA.”

But from the article, I'm not sure if it means he went to them about the ball being a problem back then, or about slow play (and now current day focusing on the ball).

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

But from the article, I'm not sure if it means he went to them about the ball being a problem back then, or about slow play (and now current day focusing on the ball).

Nicklaus can blame himself for a lot of the slow play out there.

I agree on the confusion, too:

Quote

So while Nicklaus is still of the belief that a reduced-flight golf ball would solve many of these problems and has been told the USGA is getting closer on the issue, his own experience suggests many modern pros could speed things along by simply playing ready golf with the equipment already in use. 

[iacas]

[Missouri Swede]

Taking the data and removing time gives this:

Edited February 22, 2018 by Missouri Swede

[406pat]

6 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Taking the data and removing time gives this:

Looks pretty convincing but correlation doesn't equal causation. There are too many variables that aren't controlled. This data set could be comparing a 150 cc persimmon head with steel shaft hitting a wound balata to a 460cc Taylormade M2 with a custom graphite shaft cranking a ProV1X. It's thought provoking but the only thing the original graph told us for sure is that clubhead size and driving distance have been increasing on the tour since 1980. 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, 406pat said:

This data set could be comparing a 150 cc persimmon head with steel shaft hitting a wound balata to a 460cc Taylormade M2 with a custom graphite shaft cranking a ProV1X.

It’s not. It’s clubhead size and driving distance on the PGA Tour. Says it on the chart.

Nor am I arguing causation.

Just an interesting thing.

[lastings]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

It’s not. It’s clubhead size and driving distance on the PGA Tour. Says it on the chart.

Nor am I arguing causation.

Just an interesting thing.

I have a question here.   no clue what the answer is.  

So, typically, Larger clubhead size promotes forgiveness, right?   Larger heads don't create more ball speed, do they?  

So, is the suggestion from this correlation that pros today can swing much harder because they have more forgiving clubs?   or am I off there?

 

 

 

[Lihu]

36 minutes ago, 406pat said:

It's thought provoking but the only thing the original graph told us for sure is that clubhead size and driving distance have been increasing on the tour since 1980. 

And leveled off around 2002. Not nitpicking, but that’s kind of significant.

[406pat]

31 minutes ago, Lihu said:

And leveled off around 2002. Not nitpicking, but that’s kind of significant.

Very true. That's also about when the COR rules were implemented... another variable that isn't controlled for.

I'm not trying to nay say the data or dispute that it's an interesting correlation worth looking into. Just trying to point out that jumping to the conclusion that head size is the problem with driver distance is premature with this data set. In fact, I see this data as strongly suggesting that the answer for question 2 in the poll is that several factors contribute heavily to the distance problem for those that vote there's a problem.

[MuniGrit]

They should all have to use the Kirkland ball.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, lastings said:

So, typically, Larger clubhead size promotes forgiveness, right? Larger heads don't create more ball speed, do they?  

So, is the suggestion from this correlation that pros today can swing much harder because they have more forgiving clubs? or am I off there?

They can't on their own, but CoR rose to the limit of 0.83 as faces got thinner and clubheads got bigger.

I think the only point that graph makes - it comes from a Titleist PDF - is that the "distance" is a multi-faceted thing, and blaming only the ball (if you wish to place blame to begin with) is an "incorrect" way of assigning blame.

2 hours ago, 406pat said:

Just trying to point out that jumping to the conclusion that head size is the problem with driver distance is premature with this data set.

Nobody's doing that.

P.S. The PDF is here: http://media.titleist.com/images/titleist/files/us/traditionandtechnology_2017-sm.pdf .

[Nutsmacker]

3 hours ago, MuniGrit said:

They should all have to use the Kirkland ball.

I like that idea...or  better yet, they have to use pinnacle gold golf balls.  That way we are all happy.  The pro's will play the same equipment available to all of us...but they are forced to play the world's worst golf ball.  

[Lihu]

14 minutes ago, Nutsmacker said:

I like that idea...or  better yet, they have to use pinnacle gold golf balls.  That way we are all happy.  The pro's will play the same equipment available to all of us...but they are forced to play the world's worst golf ball.  

And keep them frozen just to make sure they don’t swing too fast.

 

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, Nutsmacker said:

I like that idea...or  better yet, they have to use pinnacle gold golf balls.  That way we are all happy.  The pro's will play the same equipment available to all of us...but they are forced to play the world's worst golf ball.  

You do know that'll just make them hit it further though, right? There's a reason you buy a sleeve of Pinnacle gold's at the clubhouse before a scramble to use off the tee all day.

[iacas]

There are other graphs, btw, in this Titleist document: http://media.titleist.com/images/titleist/files/us/traditionandtechnology_2017-sm.pdf

[Nutsmacker]

1 hour ago, Pretzel said:

You do know that'll just make them hit it further though, right? There's a reason you buy a sleeve of Pinnacle gold's at the clubhouse before a scramble to use off the tee all day.

Okay, then they can play the Pinnacle Soft version.