Water in bunker ruling

[scotth]

This afternoon while playing I had a ball in a mostly water filled bunker.  First photo is view from fairway toward the green.  In the 2nd photo I put an X where I dropped ball and hit citing Rule 25-1.  

The person I was playing with today said that was not the correct rule and I should take a penalty stroke if we were playing a match.  I am pretty darn sure he was wrong, since I had just looked it up using my USGA rules of golf app on my phone.

What do you guys think?  Was I right or wrong?

Edited September 7, 2017 by scotth

[billchao]

9 minutes ago, scotth said:

The person I was playing with today said that was not the correct rule and I should take a penalty stroke if we were playing a match.  I am pretty darn sure he was wrong, since I had just looked it up using my USGA rules of golf app on my phone.

I'm not really sure why they would think that. You'd only take a penalty if you had to drop outside of the bunker.

Quote

(ii)

In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

(a)

Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or

(b)

Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

Even if the entire bunker was covered in water, you can drop within the bunker without penalty:

Quote

25-1b/8

 

Player's Options When Bunker Completely Covered by Casual Water

Q.If a player's ball lies in a bunker completely covered by casual water, what are his options?

A.The player may play the ball as it lies or:

(1) drop the ball in the bunker without penalty at the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the depth of the casual water is least - Rule 25-1b(ii)(a); or

(2) drop the ball behind the bunker under penalty of one stroke - Rule 25-1b(ii)(b); or

(3) deem the ball unplayable and proceed in accordance with Rule 28.

 

[Piz]

You took relief from casual water and dropped the ball in the hazard and no closer to the hole.  I don't see the problem.

[iacas]

I'm not sure you dropped at the nearest point.

I'm not there so I can't see where the hole is, what the actual distances are, etc. Also, I noted you're a lefty, but I don't know how wide your stance is, etc.

But it seems to me the darker blue lines are about the same distance, and you could have dropped at the end of the light blue line:

The rule reads as follows…

Quote

Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or…

Looks like you could get complete relief laterally and closer than the point way toward the back edge.

You might have even been able to go to the right in the image here.

[David in FL]

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not sure you dropped at the nearest point.

I'm not there so I can't see where the hole is, what the actual distances are, etc. Also, I noted you're a lefty, but I don't know how wide your stance is, etc.

But it seems to me the darker blue lines are about the same distance, and you could have dropped at the end of the light blue line:

The rule reads as follows…

Looks like you could get complete relief laterally and closer than the point way toward the back edge.

You might have even been able to go to the right in the image here.

My thought too.  Which means you played from the wrong spot.

A case where trying to be overly cautious could actually cost you....

[scotth]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm not sure you dropped at the nearest point.

I'm not there so I can't see where the hole is, what the actual distances are, etc. Also, I noted you're a lefty, but I don't know how wide your stance is, etc.

But it seems to me the darker blue lines are about the same distance, and you could have dropped at the end of the light blue line:

The rule reads as follows…

Looks like you could get complete relief laterally and closer than the point way toward the back edge.

You might have even been able to go to the right in the image here.

I thought about dropping where you indicated, but also thought it might be closer to the pin, so opted for the spot I indicated.  

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, scotth said:

I thought about dropping where you indicated, but also thought it might be closer to the pin, so opted for the spot I indicated.  

It's your responsibility to know whether it was closer or not.

It doesn't appear to be closer:

Whether the black or white "circle" are correct (tough to know 3D in 2D), there are points pretty close - especially to the right side of this photo - that appear to offer relatively nearby "complete relief."

I think, as I hinted at and @David in FL said, you played from a wrong place.

I could be wrong. Again, I'm trying to look at a 3D situation in 2D. But the distances seem pretty clearly to favor going sideways a little over back quite a bit more. It appears.

[David in FL]

Regardless though, your buddy was wrong in telling you that you incur a penalty stroke in taking relief from casual water in a bunker...

[scotth]

Just now, David in FL said:

Regardless though, your buddy was wrong in telling you that you incur a penalty stroke in taking relief from casual water in a bunker...

Would definitely not consider the person I played with a buddy, more like an unfortunate pairing.  Other than we both walk when we play we don't agree on much.  I generally refer to him as "the topper" to my wife because any conversation always results in him having a better story etc.

Which is why I was trying to be extra careful about where I took relief.  I knew I would hear it the last 5 holes if he thought it was wrong.  Which I did...

Of course, he offered no help or opinion until after I played the ball. 

Least I know for next time.

[Buckeyebowman]

Went out to watch the Youngstown State Lady Penguins golf team's invitational for a while this past Monday and Tuesday. Monday found the course dry, firm, and fast. Tuesday was a little different story after heavy rains overnight.

There was some doubt about getting the 2nd round in, but the weather straightened up, and got downright pleasant, long enough for that to happen.

However, the low spots in quite a few bunkers were flooded. Tourney rules said that a player in a bunker in water were allowed to determine the nearest point of complete relief, rake the sand in order to fluff it up a bit, and place the ball no nearer the hole.

Mind you, I'm not quoting this as USGA chapter and verse. This was a local rule for a local situation.

Seems like the guy you were playing with was trying to interpret the rules to screw you. From the illustrations, it seems like you gave yourself a much harder shot than you needed to. So, I don't know what he was griping about!

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Seems like the guy you were playing with was trying to interpret the rules to screw you. From the illustrations, it seems like you gave yourself a much harder shot than you needed to. So, I don't know what he was griping about!

It doesn't matter if it's harder if it's in the wrong place. It's still a penalty.

But two strokes not one. The guy was wrong about that too.

[MacDutch]

If you take relief, you have to take full relief. So in this case you can't touch the water with any part of you feet after you drop your ball and take your stance.

Hard to tell if there was enough room to drop it in the greenside of this bunker and not nearer to the hole.

But more important is that you determine together with your marker where the nearest point of relief is. If you do it with his consent you are in the clear. You did not and thats your biggest mistake.

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

If you take relief, you have to take full relief. So in this case you can't touch the water with any part of you feet after you drop your ball and take your stance.

Not entirely true in a bunker always.

In a bunker you find the nearest point with the most relief. If that's full relief good. If that's 90% relief much further away than a nearer 80% then you do that one. If two spots are both 85% and that's the most relief available you take the nearer one.

[toast]

On 9/7/2017 at 6:23 PM, iacas said:

I'm not sure you dropped at the nearest point.

I'm not there so I can't see where the hole is, what the actual distances are, etc. Also, I noted you're a lefty, but I don't know how wide your stance is, etc.

But it seems to me the darker blue lines are about the same distance, and you could have dropped at the end of the light blue line:

The rule reads as follows…

Looks like you could get complete relief laterally and closer than the point way toward the back edge.

You might have even been able to go to the right in the image here.

Wow, when I went to take my playing ability test for the PGA program, they insisted it couldn't be nearer to the hole in any circumstance, and if there was no room to drop in the bunker behind the water, you would then need to take an unplayable and proceed to drop outside the bunker. I don't know if it was a local rule for the setting, but I'd assume we'd do everything by the book for a PGA playing assessment. Half the bunkers were flooded that day, and a guy in my group got hit by that rule multiple times, he tried making a case to the official but was ultimately penalized around 4 or 5 strokes over 36 holes.

I'm going to look this rule up when work gets slow today and see what I can come up with.

Edited November 2, 2017 by toast

[Fourputt]

54 minutes ago, toast said:

Wow, when I went to take my playing ability test for the PGA program, they insisted it couldn't be nearer to the hole in any circumstance, and if there was no room to drop in the bunker behind the water, you would then need to take an unplayable and proceed to drop outside the bunker. I don't know if it was a local rule for the setting, but I'd assume we'd do everything by the book for a PGA playing assessment. Half the bunkers were flooded that day, and a guy in my group got hit by that rule multiple times, he tried making a case to the official but was ultimately penalized around 4 or 5 strokes over 36 holes.

I'm going to look this rule up when work gets slow today and see what I can come up with.

It is not a local rule.  Rule 25-1b(ii) states:

Quote

b. Relief

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows:

Quote

(ii)

In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker, the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

(a)

Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole, on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or

(b)

Under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Fourputt

[toast]

5 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

It is not a local rule.  Rule 25-1b(ii) states:

 

Then yeah, that looks to be how we played it. I misinterpreted the diagram above- thought he was dropping closer to the hole if there wasn't enough real estate to make a unobstructed drop behind the water.

[iacas]

9 hours ago, toast said:

Then yeah, that looks to be how we played it. I misinterpreted the diagram above- thought he was dropping closer to the hole if there wasn't enough real estate to make a unobstructed drop behind the water.

They can make a local rule declaring them GUR, but that's only to be done in very extreme cases. Bunkers are hazards.

http://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2011/12/the-rules-of-golf-surrounding-bunkers/

I'm not entirely sure what the proposed 2019 rules say about this, but you could check that out if you're really interested.

[Ty_Webb]

On 9/7/2017 at 8:13 PM, scotth said:

Of course, he offered no help or opinion until after I played the ball. 

If he was there watching what you were doing and said nothing until you hit it, I don’t much care whether he was right or wrong. He’s an @()&:”/3