Is Golf More Mental or Physical?

[Lihu]

Just now, Midpack said:

I set up and aim the same, but it appears I subconsciously alter my swing path. I'd call that mental, you'd call it physical.

I call it physical because it is a physical setup that makes the ball go right rather than left. I bet if you had to hook ball around a dogleg 220 yards away and landing on the fairway 280 yards from the tee box, that you couldn't do it no matter how hard you willed it to happen?

 

1 minute ago, omelette said:

Sure, I accept that I am not a great golfer and am going to hit some bad shots, but the bad shots don't tend to come at random, they come after having a negative thought so surely that is at least partly mental! 

At this point in your game, it might very well be mental. You are in the so called "conscious incompetent" or the second stage of development of a skill. I'm guessing this because of your handicap. I do know 26 handicaps who are quite good ball strikers, but they're also 80+ years old and just take more shots to get to the green.

[iacas]

Since we were accused of being mean to a newbie, I'm going to jump back in and defend the site by defending the position many are taking.

On 9/25/2017 at 5:04 AM, Runnin said:

Clearly it's a lot of both

I don't think that's clear. And that's allowing for some leeway in the definition of "a lot."

On 9/25/2017 at 5:04 AM, Runnin said:

but I've always wondered that if golf is such a mental game, why do players only seem to practice the physical side. 

Perhaps they don't practice the mental side because it's relatively unimportant.

On 9/25/2017 at 5:04 AM, Runnin said:

I've known a few players, not that many, who didn't have the most athletic or orthodox swings but were really consistent and knew how to score.  Were they not better golfers than players with long, aesthetic but unreliable swings?   What do these players who learn just enough to hit playable shots know that most golfers don't?  

You never did answer my question about this, and about how you're defining "unathletic" or "orthodox." You may not have the eye of someone who knows more about the game to say what is or isn't an athletic or orthodox swing. (Not that "orthodox" matters all that much, given Jim Furyk or Eamonn Darcy, etc.).

4 hours ago, Runnin said:

Why such attitude from so many?  Is this the way you always treat new posters?

I cannot be more clear about this: there's been no "attitude" displayed. People have disagreed with you (and each other), but there's been no attitude.

4 hours ago, Runnin said:

I've haven't heard anyone give me any reason or supporting evidence for why golf is more physical.

Then quite frankly you haven't read the topic. I don't know how else to say it.

4 hours ago, Runnin said:

According to the poll, at least 1/4 of people disagree.

A lot of those people seem to be equating "brain function" with "mental." They've said things like "well, your brain controls your body, so it's all mental." If that's the case, every sport ever is 100% mental… but good luck hitting a golf ball without a body.

I think we can all agree that a person with no brain function will be a poor golfer. They'd be just about as bad as a golfer with no body.

4 hours ago, Runnin said:

According to what I've been able to read about LSW, it's about playing and practicing smarter, aka. the mental game. 

I don't think practicing - training the physical - is about the "mental game." Again, if you're saying brain function == mental game, then the conversation is virtually pointless.

3 hours ago, Midpack said:

It's interesting how certain some are in their views, but that's what makes the world go around. While I believe it's more physical than mental, I almost always know when I've made a mental mistake (after the fact), and they're often pretty costly. I often can't feel what I've done "different" physically when I make a bad pass at the ball. The mental aspect of the game is more challenging than the physical to me. YMMV

Look, let's put it this way.

Take an average 18 handicapper who has a relatively typical mental game. He's afraid of a few shots per round, or feels uncomfortable, but most of the time he just hits the ball poorly, putts not so well, and has a less than great short game.

How many uncomfortable shots does he face in a round? Shots that legitimately make him nervous or whatever? Two or three? And guess what, he'll pull those off sometimes. Not often, or he wouldn't be so nervous, but sometimes.

Meanwhile he still takes 85+ other shots. Why? Because he's physically incapable of shooting 68. He can't do it.

2 hours ago, klineka said:

Obviously there is the mental part of the brain activating the muscles necessary to swing a golf club. Nobody is disagreeing with that. Just like nobody is disagreeing with the fact that you make a mental choice of where to aim. Obviously it is a mental choice to aim the correct direction on the tee box to the hole you are playing, but you still have to have the physical ability to hit the ball in that direction.

Right, and most people can figure out where to aim pretty well. It's not like you ever have to work on your mental game and adjust your aim by 45° because you literally didn't know where to aim. Golfers figure that stuff out pretty quickly to within a reasonable measure. (Once they actually map their Shot Zones they're capable of being more precise, but it's a matter of precision.)

2 hours ago, klineka said:

You can make a mental choice to aim away from water on the right, but if you lack the physical ability to hit the ball on your target line, then the ball can still end up slicing into the water. That is not a mental error, that is a physical issue because you dont have a consistent enough swing to hit down your target line.

A lot of people will blame the mental error in hindsight as a form of self protection. Because they know their mind is something they can will themselves to change immediately, while their swing has likely been their swing for a long time.

It's like how PGA Tour pros will blame anything but themselves for hitting a bad shot. The lie. The wind. Their club. Their caddie (Bubba). It protects them so they can perform on the next shot, and keep their ego intact.

Amateurs do it by blaming the golf course, wind, etc. too, but also their minds.

Look, an 18 handicapper is gonna hit a number of bad shots whether he thinks positively beforehand or not. That's why he's an 18.

2 hours ago, Midpack said:

So the poll says 71% physical and 29% mental - sounds about right to me, even if only by chance. Mostly physical but the mental side is significant, there are strokes to be gained from both.

The poll doesn't ask what percentage contribution golf makes to your score, it asks which is more important. Given the poll and topic question, every one of the 29% is wrong. Golf is not "more mental" than it is physical.

A lot of the golfers who voted "mental" also seem to be equating "mental" with "brain function." Hell, if that was the definition, I'd switch my vote right now. But it's not.

2 hours ago, phillyk said:

How many strokes would we consider brain farts or not knowing the course or whatever may constitute "mental" in a round?  My average score right now is 73.5, and maybe 1 or 2 a round could be mental, if that.  For a 100's shooter, maybe 5 or 6 at the very most.  So we are talking about 95% or more strokes taken constitute the physical, leaving 5% at most mental.  There is no possible way someone is brain farting 50 strokes in their round.  At that point its not a brain fart, it's a bad physical swing.

Remember, too, that golf is not a game where you can get 0 either. So base it on maybe 65 or something on the low end.

But it's also possible to shoot 120 (or 150+), too, so really your physical skills make up for a larger percentage of those strokes you don't take than your mental skills cost you.

But you can't really "do the math" and say "1 shot out of 73.5 is < 5%" because you can't shoot 0.

2 hours ago, omelette said:

I know the mental side of my game is bad because I can be playing well then it will pop in my head that I'm going to hit a bad shot and invariably I will.

So you've never hit a bad shot when you had a positive mental thought?

I bet you have.

I also bet your "good" shots aren't all that good compared to better golfers. So in both cases, the physical is costing you.

2 hours ago, omelette said:

And then there are the certain holes that I'll play badly nearly every round, surely that's down to the mental side!

Why? Maybe you hit a slice, and a dogleg left with trees left and a pond right is your nemesis hole. You lack the physical skills to fit your shot into the hole, so you always pull it into the trees, or slice it into the pond.

The lack of physical skills can lead to an impaired mental skill set or more nerves… because your mind is aware of the fact that you lack the physical skills.

See @mvmac's brilliant post a few pages earlier in the topic.

2 hours ago, omelette said:

Sure, I accept that I am not a great golfer and am going to hit some bad shots, but the bad shots don't tend to come at random, they come after having a negative thought so surely that is at least partly mental! 

Always? I doubt it.

Without reason? I doubt that too.

Because if it was just a matter of not having negative thoughts, you should be able to shoot 68 tomorrow with a psychologist as your caddie, helping you to think positively about everything, and you know that's not gonna happen. You get nervous over shots because you know your physical skills aren't up to snuff.

[Zekez]

25 minutes ago, iacas said:

Because if it was just a matter of not having negative thoughts, you should be able to shoot 68 tomorrow with a psychologist as your caddie, helping you to think positively about everything, and you know that's not gonna happen. You get nervous over shots because you know your physical skills aren't up to snuff.

This x100000000000000000000000000000000000

[BaconNEggs]

3 hours ago, omelette said:

Sure, I accept that I am not a great golfer and am going to hit some bad shots, but the bad shots don't tend to come at random, they come after having a negative thought so surely that is at least partly mental! 

Why do you have negative thoughts? Because you aren't (physically) that good of a golfer, your swing is not consistent enough, and you are not confident in your ability to hit a good shot. I don't mean any offense there. And people are notoriously untrustworthy when recalling events. I would bet that for every time you have a "negative thought" and hit a bad shot (relative to your average shot), there are times you have a "negative thought" and hit an average or good shot. You just don't remember them, or you place an outsized significance on the times you hit a bad shot.

 

3 hours ago, Midpack said:

I set up (static before the backswing) and aim the same, but it appears I subconsciously alter my swing path. I realize altering my swing path is physical, but if I'm not consciously altering my swing path to avoid trouble - I'd call that mental, you'd call it physical. I do it on certain holes week after week, even aim more left and yet the ball almost invariably tends right (or vice versa). On other wide open holes, it doesn't happen regularly. I guess I'm unique.

I totally get it. If you have water on the right side, it's not uncommon to think don't slice and hit the water, and yet invariably that's what happens. In this hypothetical, maybe a golfer is probably swinging away from the water (out to in) in an effort to avoid it (despite that being the opposite swingpath you'd want), cutting across the ball, and slicing it. Here's the thing: if your swing was rock-solid and repeatable (physically), and you knew with 95% certainty that you could hit the shot you wanted to hit (maybe a draw that starts center and goes left), that mental error manifesting itself in an out to in swingpath and unwanted slice wouldn't happen.

You're not unique; you're typical. Your physical game simply is not good enough, and mental errors manifest themselves into physical errors. And yes, you could be mentally better, and without that mental error that pops up you might avoid the water on the right more often, but at the end of the day the mistake you and others like Runnin continue to make is to highlight these one-off examples where mental errors cause an extra stroke or two and then extrapolate that to mean they are more important than the physical game. Think about it. You're a 15 index. You might be able to shave 3 or 4 strokes a round (generous IMO) if your mental game were better. But you're still going to make purely physical mistakes that result in the other 10-15 shots above par that you normally hit. Which would you rather have: Tiger Woods' swing from 2000 (physical) and your current mental game, or your current swing and Tiger Woods' 2000 mental game? If you take the latter, again, you might shave off a small handful of strokes from your current index. If you took the former, you'd instantly be a scratch golfer. Would you even worry about that water on the right if you knew you could hit 20 other tee shots of varying shapes and distances so consistently? No!

 

3 hours ago, Midpack said:

But this whole debate has become just as tiresome and unsolvable to me as others. Golf is physical and mental, in that order IME. How much of each probably depends on the individual. Low handicappers have mastered the mental better. High handicappers are probably giving away strokes due to mental errors, I see young guys with clear physical ability make bad shotmaking choices all the time - I'd categorize those as mental errors.

It's not unsolvable, people just don't want to listen. They just want to put forth their arguments and hold their ground, regardless of the counter-argument. Golf, like every single sport, is predominantly physical. There is not a single sport out there where the "mental game" is more important to an individual's performance. It's just not a thing! Sports are physical! Yes, the mental game matters. Mental errors might cause you to make a bad shot making decision. Mental errors might be the difference between shooting a 79 or 80. But they will not be the difference between shooting a 79 and a 95. A 25 handicapper is not going to break 80 because his mental game is strong. A scratch golfer won't shoot 95 because of a poor mental state.

Edited September 28, 2017 by BaconNEggs

[BaconNEggs]

Since course management seems so relevant, take Frisbee/disc golf as an example. You face many of the same considerations as a golf course, minus things like lie and water hazards. But the skill hurdle is that much lower, assuming you're good enough to consistently throw a Frisbee. And assuming you are good enough to do that, you would almost never accidentally throw the Frisbee directly at the target you're trying to avoid (e.g. the woods). Doesn't matter how nervous you are. Doesn't matter how frustrated or upset you are. Why? Because you are physically good enough / consistent enough to throw the Frisbee at the target you want, regardless of your mental state. Golf is like that, but on steroids. The skills are just that much more difficult to master.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, BaconNEggs said:

Since course management seems so relevant, take Frisbee/disc golf as an example. You face many of the same considerations as a golf course, minus things like lie and water hazards. But the skill hurdle is that much lower, assuming you're good enough to consistently throw a Frisbee. And assuming you are good enough to do that, you would almost never accidentally throw the Frisbee directly at the target you're trying to avoid (e.g. the woods). Doesn't matter how nervous you are. Doesn't matter how frustrated or upset you are. Why? Because you are physically good enough / consistent enough to throw the Frisbee at the target you want, regardless of your mental state. Golf is like that, but on steroids. The skills are just that much more difficult to master.

I don't think that example works as well as you think. High level disc golf is more than just throwing a frisbee… and does have water hazards, etc.

But whatever.

[rehmwa]

33 minutes ago, BaconNEggs said:

assuming you're good enough to consistently throw a Frisbee

bad assumption

I play golf because.....well, if you've ever seen me attempt to throw anything, you'd know

Edited September 28, 2017 by rehmwa

[sjduffers]

On 9/27/2017 at 9:42 AM, saevel25 said:

A golfer isn't thinking, "Ok, on this shot I am going to hit the ball so the clubface is 2 degrees open, and I know the swing path is 3 degrees out. That isn't happening.

No doubt about that.   There is a conscious brain and an unconscious one that controls things like breathing, staying upright while walking... and even chewing gum at the same time! 

To me, the mental part about golf is the conscious one, and it can have an effect on the unconscious one, whether via nerves, poor choices, lack of confidence, focus or mental image of the result to achieve, etc...

Again, one has to compare the mental/physical dichotomy within him/herself only, not to another player as there is no way that conscious thinking alone can drive the unconscious golfer physical activity to match someone else's. And if we just keep it as just that, I think there is case to be made that the conscious brain controls a non-trivial portion of the outcome, and more so with less skilled and/or experienced players.

Whether it's 1%,10% or some other percentage is probably varying with individuals (and their skill/experience), but within one individual, there is no doubt, in my mind (ah! ), that the unconscious brain (the physical aspects) contributes to the vast majority of the outcome, in terms of overall score for example. However, on a single shot it's not so clear: you don't need to miss by much to have a truly awful result! 

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, BaconNEggs said:

Yes, the mental game matters. Mental errors might cause you to make a bad shot making decision. Mental errors might be the difference between shooting a 79 or 80. But they will not be the difference between shooting a 79 and a 95. A 25 handicapper is not going to break 80 because his mental game is strong. A scratch golfer won't shoot 95 because of a poor mental state.

I like this. 

 

2 hours ago, BaconNEggs said:

They just want to put forth their arguments and hold their ground, regardless of the counter-argument.

Boy have I been guilty of this. But I believe I've come around eventually. And @Runnin needs to see the light on this one.

[sjduffers]

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

If anyone can give a clear example of how to improve your mental game through drills like there are for the physical part of the game, then correlate that to an improvement in score, I'd love to hear it.

Are is an example. Putting drill around the clock: 4 different directions to the cup, start with distances at 3 feet, make all 4, them make them at 4ft, repeat at 5ft, etc... You can have more or fewer directions to the cup if you prefer and change the distances too. But, if you fail to make any putt in the sequence, you have to start again from the beginning and you can't call it a day until you are done.

It builds ability to putt under pressure. Try it!

[Lihu]

Just now, sjduffers said:

Are is an example. Putting drill around the clock: 4 different directions to the cup, start with distances at 3 feet, make all 4, them make them at 4ft, repeat at 5ft, etc... You can have more or fewer directions to the cup if you prefer and change the distances too. But, if you fail to make any putt in the sequence, you have to start again from the beginning and you can't call it a day until you are done.

It builds ability to putt under pressure. Try it!

Sounds like a great physical putting drill! I've promised myself to do this physical drill in the past, but haven't had the physical energy to set things up physically after a physical workout on the driving range or the physical course.

 

Did I use "physical" enough times?

[sjduffers]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Sounds like a great physical putting drill! I've promised myself to do this physical drill in the past, but haven't had the physical energy to set things up physically after a physical workout on the driving range or the physical course.

 

Did I use "physical" enough times?

LOL! You sure have used physical plenty of times (hey, I am not deaf, I mean daft), but the goal/result is to built toughness under pressure, which is a mental skill that prevents physical things like tension, shaking, blurred vision, etc...

Worth doing, and since you said "If anyone can give a clear example of how to improve your mental game through drills like there are for the physical part of the game, then correlate that to an improvement in score, I'd love to hear it", I gave you a good example. Try it and you'll make more "must-make" putts and your score will get lower. YMMV.

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

LOL! You sure have used physical plenty of times (hey, I am not deaf, I mean daft), but the goal/result is to built toughness under pressure, which is a mental skill that prevents physical things like tension, shaking, blurred vision, etc...

Worth doing, and since you said "If anyone can give a clear example of how to improve your mental game through drills like there are for the physical part of the game, then correlate that to an improvement in score, I'd love to hear it", I gave you a good example. Try it and you'll make more "must-make" putts and your score will get lower. YMMV.

Yeah, but I see the goal is to develop mental toughness through a series of putting drills which builds up confidence through the act of putting under different conditions.

Kind of like when I was practicing my 150 yard punch shots under a tree by hitting punch shots under a tree at the range.

In this sense, my mental game was toughened by improving my physical game through successful driving range practice and varied putting practice.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Lihu

[mvmac]

8 hours ago, Runnin said:

I've haven't heard anyone give me any reason or supporting evidence for why golf is more physical.  

Scenario 1, I have a magic wand and I'm able to transfer Tiger's swing, putting stroke, short game (circa 2000) to you but your current mental game is the same.

Scenario 2, I use the magic wand to transfer Tiger's mental game (circa 2000) but your swing, putting, short game is still yours.

Which scenario will you shoot a lower score?

So basically what I'm saying is do you think you'd shoot a lower score if your physical ability greatly improved or if your mental game improved? 

Hint: It's scenario 1 and it will never be close.

[Lihu]

4 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Scenario 1, I have a magic wand and I'm able to transfer Tiger's swing, putting stroke, short game (circa 2000) to you but your current mental game is the same.

Scenario 2, I use the magic wand to transfer Tiger's mental game (circa 2000) but your swing, putting, short game is still yours.

Which scenario will you shoot a lower score?

So basically what I'm saying is do you think you'd shoot a lower score if your physical ability greatly improved or if your mental game improved? 

Hint: It's scenario 1 and it will never be close.

I'd even take Tiger's current game, and definitely not his current mental game because I don't want to lose that one stroke.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Lihu

[sjduffers]

23 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yeah, but I see the goal is to develop mental toughness through a series of putting drills which builds up confidence through the act of putting under different conditions.

It's not the under different conditions that's important here (another drill could be to hole out 25 4-footers from the same spot). The point is that if you fail to hole once, at any point in the sequence, you start over from the beginning and you can't go home until you are "done", whatever "done" means for you that day.

Obviously the loftier the goal of the drill, the more pressure you put yourself under as you get closer to the end. Say you decide before hand that you have to make all 4 6-footers before you are done with the drill. If you miss the second 4-footer, you have to redo all the 3-footers and the first 4-footer you already made once (5 putts total) and continue from there. If you miss the last 6-footer, you have to redo all the 3, 4, 5 and 6 footers before you can call it a day: that's another 15 putts in the row before you have a chance at redoing the one you just missed, so the cost of missing increases and that is added pressure that you are training yourself to handle.

[Lihu]

10 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

It's not the under different conditions that's important here (another drill could be to hole out 25 4-footers from the same spot). The point is that if you fail to hole once, at any point in the sequence, you start over from the beginning and you can't go home until you are "done", whatever "done" means for you that day.

Obviously the loftier the goal of the drill, the more pressure you put yourself under as you get closer to the end. Say you decide before hand that you have to make all 4 6-footers before you are done with the drill. If you miss the second 4-footer, you have to redo all the 3-footers and the first 4-footer you already made once (5 putts total) and continue from there. If you miss the last 6-footer, you have to redo all the 3, 4, 5 and 6 footers before you can call it a day: that's another 15 putts in the row before you have a chance at redoing the one you just missed, so the cost of missing increases and that is added pressure that you are training yourself to handle.

I wonder if the above could lead to more errors as you get tired or bored of putting?

What I found best is to play "closest to the pin" with some range buddies or just people you meet around the clubhouse. I have not found this added "pressure" to improve my mental game so much as have a few laughs. You can do that on the driving range as well and chipping area as well. Play for some stakes.

[sjduffers]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I wonder if the above could lead to more errors as you get tired or bored of putting?

You have to calibrate the end goal to your ability (including time available). Start with doable things and toughen the goal up as you get better.

11 minutes ago, Lihu said:

What I found best is to play "closest to the pin" with some range buddies or just people you meet around the clubhouse. I have not found this added "pressure" to improve my mental game so much as have a few laughs. You can do that on the driving range as well and chipping area as well. Play for some stakes.

Yes. That's a different kind of pressure, one based on your ability to withstand a financial or pride loss. But, it's not real pressure if you have the means to cover the loss easily. Like Trevino once said: "real pressure is being in a $20 match with $5 in your pocket!"