Score Card Procedure - Tour Pros in a tournament

[Ron]

Can anyone on the forum answer this question?  If you ask 10 different people you will get 10 different answers.  If you read 10 articles you will read 10 different explanations.  I'm trying to find out, who keeps whose score?  Do you keep your own score as well as your playing partner's score?  Does your caddy also keep your score and/or your playing partner's score?  How do you know what your playing partner scored on a hole?  What if he was OOB 300 yards away from you.  How do you know how many shots he takes if you can't see him?  Who tells you? How is it possible for a player to keep his own score, his playing partners score, be responsible for all information being totally accurate, and at the same time try to win a round in a professional golf tournament?  Do officials at each green confirm the score for that green for each player in a group?  Do the players rely on the scoreboards for the score that their playing partner shot?  Do they simply ask each other what they got on the hole?  You can see how complex this can be.  Perhaps this is why no two people or no two articles can answer the question.  I am a senior and have been playing golf for many, many years, and I am not ashamed to say that I have absolutely no idea how the Pros handle scorecards in a  tournament round.  Even if somebody on the forum tries to answer this, you will see how difficult it is to cover every question that people will have.  You would think in today's world, this would be done electronically.  When I play with 1 other person......I have a hard time just trying to keep my own score!!!!  (LOL) Does anybody want to try to answer this?  I'm sure it's not easy!

[Club Rat]

Scorecards are printed out for each player.

The card will have the players name on one line and another line will have the scorekeeper line to record their score.

Cards are then exchanged among players in the group.

Every player will record an opponents score along with their own.

At the end of the round the cards are then given back to the players upon checking for correct scores and then signed.

Even on general course scorecards there are places at the bottom of cards for signatures by scorer and a person to attest the score.

15 minutes ago, Ron said:

Even if somebody on the forum tries to answer this, you will see how difficult it is to cover every question that people will have.

It's not that difficult, they simply ask or confirm a score.

[Ron]

8 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Scorecards are printed out for each player.

The card will have the players name on one line and another line will have the scorekeeper line to record their score.

Cards are then exchanged among players in the group.

Every player will record an opponents score along with their own.

At the end of the round the cards are then given back to the players upon checking for correct scores and then signed.

Even on general course scorecards there are places at the bottom of cards for signatures by scorer and a person to attest the score.

It's not that difficult, they simply ask or confirm a score.

So on a Par 5, if you go down the left side of the hole, and your playing partner goes down the right side of the hole, you score a bogey, and your playing partner scores a double bogey;  how can you accurately confirm 13 different shots on the hole?  What if you didn't see him take 2 of his 7 shots?

Also, ask who?  What if the person that the player asks makes a mistake and the wrong score is put down and the other player signs it. DQ????  

[iacas]

@Ron, what's so hard here? You keep your fellow competitor's card. On days you're in a threesome, A keeps B, B keeps C, and C keeps A. They have a tear-off strip to write your own scores down.

If you don't know, you ask the guy. If he lies, and is caught, it's a DQ, yeah. (Assuming the score is lower than he got.)

And if you wrote down a 5 because you didn't ask the guy and you didn't pay attention when he took two swings out of the bunker and actually took a 6, it's on him to fix it in the scorer's tent, or maybe after nine when you quickly check the scores (if you do that in your group).

[Club Rat]

2 hours ago, Ron said:

Also, ask who?

You ask the player who you are recording their scores.
You are just a player in a competition with other players, not a rules official, official scorer, or any other person involved in the tournament.
If a player lies and you believe he may, you can question the circumstance or bring the incident to an official.

Tour Player don't make it to the Pro Tour by being cheaters.

Golf is a game about player honesty, sure there are a few that cheat at lower level competitions, but very rare in any USGA or Collegiate levels.  

[Ron]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

@Ron, what's so hard here? You keep your fellow competitor's card. On days you're in a threesome, A keeps B, B keeps C, and C keeps A. They have a tear-off strip to write your own scores down.

If you don't know, you ask the guy. If he lies, and is caught, it's a DQ, yeah. (Assuming the score is lower than he got.)

And if you wrote down a 5 because you didn't ask the guy and you didn't pay attention when he took two swings out of the bunker and actually took a 6, it's on him to fix it in the scorer's tent, or maybe after nine when you quickly check the scores (if you do that in your group).

OK.  I just wasn't sure.  One of the articles that I read said that the main reason that the system of keeping your fellow competitor's score came about was to ensure that a competitor did not enhance his score.  So honorable trust is still a huge factor.  Even for us amateurs, we all know that the quickest way to get blackballed in a club is to cheat on your score!!  

2 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

You ask the player who you are recording their scores.
You are just a player in a competition with other players, not a rules official, official scorer, or any other person involved in the tournament.
If a player lies and you believe he may, you can question the circumstance or bring the incident to an official.

Tour Player don't make it to the Pro Tour by being cheaters.

Golf is a game about player honesty, sure there are a few that cheat at lower level competitions, but very rare in any USGA or Collegiate levels.  

OK, good, thanks.  I guess that is what I was looking for.  Honesty and trust!  I guess I should have realized that because when I think about it, I never heard any Pro complain about the scorecard system so I should have realized that it was not a big inconvenience.  Thanks again.

[DaveP043]

9 hours ago, Ron said:

OK, good, thanks.  I guess that is what I was looking for.  Honesty and trust!  I guess I should have realized that because when I think about it, I never heard any Pro complain about the scorecard system so I should have realized that it was not a big inconvenience.  Thanks again.

I'm a long way from being a tour pro, but the same general procedure is followed at most club-level competitions too.  Its usually not hard to keep track of my fellow competitor's score as well as mine.  If I do lose track, I ask.  I tell my score to my "marker" as we walk off the green.  If I think someone has given me the wrong score, maybe lost track or forgot a shot, I double-check the shots with the guy.  At the end of the round, I compare the scores on my official scorecard ( that my FC has kept) with the scores I've kept for myself, to make sure the official one agrees.  If there are discrepancies, I consult with my FC to make sure we agree on the correct score.   At the end of the day, its MY job to report the correct scores for myself.  From everything I've ever heard, the pro tour follows the same general routine.

Its interesting that the people who complain about the scorecard procedure on the pro tours aren't the pros themselves.  

[UlyssesSky]

On 6.1.2018 at 3:15 PM, DaveP043 said:

I'm a long way from being a tour pro, but the same general procedure is followed at most club-level competitions too.  Its usually not hard to keep track of my fellow competitor's score as well as mine.  If I do lose track, I ask.  I tell my score to my "marker" as we walk off the green.  If I think someone has given me the wrong score, maybe lost track or forgot a shot, I double-check the shots with the guy.  At the end of the round, I compare the scores on my official scorecard ( that my FC has kept) with the scores I've kept for myself, to make sure the official one agrees.  If there are discrepancies, I consult with my FC to make sure we agree on the correct score.   At the end of the day, its MY job to report the correct scores for myself.  From everything I've ever heard, the pro tour follows the same general routine.

Its interesting that the people who complain about the scorecard procedure on the pro tours aren't the pros themselves.  

The bold part is the most important thing. Just in addition, here's the official definition of a marker in golf: " A marker is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor's score in stroke play.", i.e. his only job is to write a competitor's score down, not to keep track of his shots.

So the only score you have to keep is your own. You then simply put down the score the other guy tells you he shot. If he gives you a score that's to high it's his bad. If he tells you a score that is too low and it comes out, also his bad.

In tour events, competitors giving a score that's too low should be a non-issue, since there's so many officials and cameras around and the potential punishment (DQ) is so severe that noone in his right mind would give a score that's too low on purpose.

If I'm playing in a club comp as marker for someone who's new to the game and oviously struggling to keep track of his shots or for someone who is known to not play by the rules from time to time I keep an eye on what he's doing and ask him if that's really what he shot when he tells me he made par after hitting one OOB off the tee...

 

[Ron]

5 hours ago, UlyssesSky said:

The bold part is the most important thing. Just in addition, here's the official definition of a marker in golf: " A marker is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor's score in stroke play.", i.e. his only job is to write a competitor's score down, not to keep track of his shots.

So the only score you have to keep is your own. You then simply put down the score the other guy tells you he shot. If he gives you a score that's to high it's his bad. If he tells you a score that is too low and it comes out, also his bad.

In tour events, competitors giving a score that's too low should be a non-issue, since there's so many officials and cameras around and the potential punishment (DQ) is so severe that noone in his right mind would give a score that's too low on purpose.

If I'm playing in a club comp as marker for someone who's new to the game and oviously struggling to keep track of his shots or for someone who is known to not play by the rules from time to time I keep an eye on what he's doing and ask him if that's really what he shot when he tells me he made par after hitting one OOB off the tee...

 

Well, I certainly have a better understanding of the procedure now and thank you all.  The third paragraph of the post from UlyssesSky illustrates why I think that the whole procedure is a bit outdated now.  Certainly, there must be a way for scores in Professional Golf to be kept by other than the players.  But then perhaps, that is what is so unique about Golf.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Ron said:

Well, I certainly have a better understanding of the procedure now and thank you all.  The third paragraph of the post from UlyssesSky illustrates why I think that the whole procedure is a bit outdated now.  Certainly, there must be a way for scores in Professional Golf to be kept by other than the players.  But then perhaps, that is what is so unique about Golf.

Go to a random tournament on a Thursday, and wander around away from the popular groups.  You'll see players and caddies, a dozen spectators, probably a teen-aged walking scoreboard person.  That's it.  No TV, no officials most of the time, so it has to fall on the players.  And if those guys have to be responsible for their scores, the entire field has to be.

[Golfingdad]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Go to a random tournament on a Thursday, and wander around away from the popular groups.  You'll see players and caddies, a dozen spectators, probably a teen-aged walking scoreboard person.  That's it.  No TV, no officials most of the time, so it has to fall on the players.  And if those guys have to be responsible for their scores, the entire field has to be.

I don't think that's accurate.  Not to open a whole can of worms on this scorecard thing, but I'm pretty sure there is at least one person walking with every group that is keeping each players score.  Real-time scoring updates on the around-the-course scoreboards and on pgatour.com (and the other various websites and apps) have to come from somewhere. ;)

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I don't think that's accurate.  Not to open a whole can of worms on this scorecard thing, but I'm pretty sure there is at least one person walking with every group that is keeping each players score.  Real-time scoring updates on the around-the-course scoreboards and on pgatour.com (and the other various websites and apps) have to come from somewhere. ;)

You're not exactly correct. They come from the inputs of ShotLink people. If they miss a penalty drop or something, or don't see that the player hit two balls off the tee, you can get discrepancies in the online scoring. It happens now and then.

No walking scorers except at majors, typically.

Anyway, the ShotLink people are stationary. They're on each hole in a designated spot. Typically one near the landing area with their surveyor's equipment, and another near the green (par fours) so they can tag the shots.

So, they have no idea what the player got on the fourth hole, and the ones in the landing area of the fifth hole don't even know what the player scores for that fifth hole.

[Ron]

41 minutes ago, iacas said:

You're not exactly correct. They come from the inputs of ShotLink people. If they miss a penalty drop or something, or don't see that the player hit two balls off the tee, you can get discrepancies in the online scoring. It happens now and then.

No walking scorers except at majors, typically.

Anyway, the ShotLink people are stationary. They're on each hole in a designated spot. Typically one near the landing area with their surveyor's equipment, and another near the green (par fours) so they can tag the shots.

So, they have no idea what the player got on the fourth hole, and the ones in the landing area of the fifth hole don't even know what the player scores for that fifth hole.

OK, I knew it was only a matter of time before the discrepancies started to appear.  And, I am NOT suggesting that anybody who has posted has been wrong!  It is only as I stated in my opening post, a difficult topic to explain, due to the many possible situations which can occur.  I think the most important question for me has been clarified.  That being, each player has only to record the score of his playing partner on each hole, as best as he can determine, or has been told, along with his own score on that hole.  He does NOT have to physically see every shot that his playing partner has made.  So....Are we pretty much in agreement here? 

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Ron said:

OK, I knew it was only a matter of time before the discrepancies started to appear.  And, I am NOT suggesting that anybody who has posted has been wrong!  It is only as I stated in my opening post, a difficult topic to explain, due to the many possible situations which can occur.

No.

It's not a difficult situation. You switch cards with your playing partner, if you don't know what they got on a hole you ask them, and you have your scores on a tear-off strip to confirm at the end.

The later posts, like mine, are not "discrepancies." They don't affect the player's scorecards or scoring at all, really. That's entirely up to them, and is a pretty simple, straightforward process.

17 minutes ago, Ron said:

That being, each player has only to record the score of his playing partner on each hole, as best as he can determine, or has been told, along with his own score on that hole.  He does NOT have to physically see every shot that his playing partner has made.

Right.

Pretty simple.

And everyone's agreed with that, AFAIK.

[AgentSJ]

On 1/5/2018 at 8:41 PM, Club Rat said:

Even on general course scorecards there are places at the bottom of cards for signatures by scorer and a person to attest the score.

For those type of scorecards (with multiple lines to put multiple players' names), does everyone still get an individual scorecard?  Or is there just one Marker/Scorer and anyone else just "attests" by signing it too?

[Club Rat]

2 hours ago, AgentSJ said:

For those type of scorecards (with multiple lines to put multiple players' names), does everyone still get an individual scorecard? 

In our daily play, we do not. In tournament's,  yes each player receives individual cards with only one line for their score. Their is also a line for the marker to track his score.

But in the old days before printing scorecards, we simply used one card for two players and they would get signed by them.

When playing 4 ball, only one partner from each team needs to sign and attest.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:04 PM, iacas said:

@Ron, what's so hard here? You keep your fellow competitor's card. On days you're in a threesome, A keeps B, B keeps C, and C keeps A. They have a tear-off strip to write your own scores down.

If you don't know, you ask the guy. If he lies, and is caught, it's a DQ, yeah. (Assuming the score is lower than he got.)

And if you wrote down a 5 because you didn't ask the guy and you didn't pay attention when he took two swings out of the bunker and actually took a 6, it's on him to fix it in the scorer's tent, or maybe after nine when you quickly check the scores (if you do that in your group).

Exactly! I've only played in a couple of local tourneys, but we are expected to keep the score of our "playing competitor" and that of ourselves. It is not that difficult! 

[Mr22putt]

On 1/12/2018 at 12:34 PM, iacas said:

You're not exactly correct. They come from the inputs of ShotLink people. If they miss a penalty drop or something, or don't see that the player hit two balls off the tee, you can get discrepancies in the online scoring. It happens now and then.

No walking scorers except at majors, typically.

Anyway, the ShotLink people are stationary. They're on each hole in a designated spot. Typically one near the landing area with their surveyor's equipment, and another near the green (par fours) so they can tag the shots.

So, they have no idea what the player got on the fourth hole, and the ones in the landing area of the fifth hole don't even know what the player scores for that fifth hole.

There are walking scorers volunteers on the PGA...even the LPGA too......scores recorded by walking scorers are not official scores...just to keep info flowing for score boards, etc...yes there can be discrepancies because of errors made by the walking scorers.

https://www.farmersinsuranceopen.com/volunteers/committee-chairs/committee-descriptions/

https://www.thefounderslpga.com/volunteers/committee-descriptions