Patrick Reed vs. the Rules of Golf

[Vinsk]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

This is amazing.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CK6fYccFPqL/

 

Lol! That’s awesome.

[Shorty]

2 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

 I'd be willing to bet that every player on tour, Reed included, would get that assistance if they were savvy enough to realize it was legal. 

Are you seriously suggesting that PGATour players think they aren't entitled to help from the gallery when searching for their ball? You would be wrong there, sorry.

On what basis would you suggest this?

You are saying that if a member of the gallery was telling them where their ball was the players (including Reed) would tell them they can't do this. BS.

Sometimes you see dozens of gallery members searching for lost balls, especially on Open courses.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Are you seriously suggesting

No, I think he's talking about a situation like the Tiger boulder thing. Clearly.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Shorty said:

Are you seriously suggesting that PGATour players think they aren't entitled to help from the gallery when searching for their ball? You would be wrong there, sorry.

On what basis would you suggest this?

You are saying that if a member of the gallery was telling them where their ball was the players (including Reed) would tell them they can't do this. BS.

Sometimes you see dozens of gallery members searching for lost balls, especially on Open courses.

I’m totally lost here?  Did you quote the correct post or perhaps just didn’t read it right?  Cuz whatever you think I was saying isn’t remotely what I was saying.

I was simply countering the other post suggesting that Tiger is the only one that people would move a boulder for.

[Rippy_72]

Reed handled it wrong in my opinion.  For me, golf is a game of honor and virtue.  We should not waste other's time and attention when taking relief for which we are allowed under the rules.   The rare cheaters are eventually found out, why make the game slower requiring one's marker or competitor to come over to verify all is Kosher.   

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Reed handled it wrong in my opinion.

Good thing your opinion doesn't matter on this topic, as he did nothing "wrong" here.

7 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

For me, golf is a game of honor and virtue.

He did nothing dishonorable (that we know; again, if he pushed the ball down to make it embedded, we don't know that) or lacking in virtue.

7 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

We should not waste other's time and attention when taking relief for which we are allowed under the rules.

And right there is where you contradict your whole argument.

---

Again, what stinks here is that this will "tag" Reed again. A story:

When I was a really little kid, I stole some of my sister's Halloween candy after I'd finished mine (this was probably late December, and hers would last so long we'd throw half of it out anyway as she kept "saving" it so long it would spoil). I left the wrappers in my room. My mom found out, and I got in trouble, rightfully so.

My sister, being a sibling, would then for a time eat her own candy but leave the wrappers semi-hidden in my room. I'd get in trouble, even though I didn't do anything. My sister, then being lazy, would just start leaving the wrappers in her room when she ate some of her candy, and again my mom would yell at me, because I had "done it so many times before, and now I'm not even bothering to try to hide the wrappers."

So because of one bad act, I was assumed to be committing future bad acts.

I feel like the same thing could be happening to Patrick Reed right now. If he has an iffy rules situation in the future, a rules situation for which nobody would bat an eye if it's almost anyone else, people will bring up the Torrey Pines thing as if it's fact and ding him yet again.

I don't know how he breaks out of it. I couldn't. Reasoning didn't work - I was a smart kid. If I wanted to steal candy and get away with it, I'd throw the wrappers away, or put them somewhere where people wouldn't find them. Patrick called an RO over perhaps because he was thinking "oh, this will give me cover, if he says it's embedded too." And then people twisted that around, too!

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Reed handled it wrong in my opinion.  For me, golf is a game of honor and virtue.  We should not waste other's time and attention when taking relief for which we are allowed under the rules.   The rare cheaters are eventually found out, why make the game slower requiring one's marker or competitor to come over to verify all is Kosher.   

I'm wondering what you believe Reed did wrong.  He took relief as specifically allowed by the rules.  He went beyond the actual requirements of the rules by asking an official to confirm his evaluation that the ball was indeed embedded.  As far as I could tell, each step he took was in accordance with the rules.  So how did he handle it wrong?

[Rippy_72]

Just now, DaveP043 said:

I'm wondering what you believe Reed did wrong.  He took relief as specifically allowed by the rules.  He went beyond the actual requirements of the rules by asking an official to confirm his evaluation that the ball was indeed embedded.  As far as I could tell, each step he took was in accordance with the rules.  So how did he handle it wrong?

No need to call the Official over.  Waste of time and made a circus of it.  Just my perspective.

[iacas]

Just now, Rippy_72 said:

No need to call the Official over.  Waste of time and made a circus of it.  Just my perspective.

Oh brother. Tour players call officials over all the time. He was seeking verification.

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

[DaveP043]

15 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

No need to call the Official over.  Waste of time and made a circus of it.  Just my perspective.

I agree that there was no requirement under the rules.  This may have been enough of a "borderline" judgement that Reed wanted to have his own evaluation confirmed.  "I think this is enough of a lip, I believe what I feel shows the ball is embedded, but I'm not 100% sure.  Please let me know what you think."  And in this specific circumstance, imagine the even greater uproar when the video shows that the ball actually DID bounce.

[Rippy_72]

Just now, iacas said:

Oh brother. Tour players call officials over all the time. He was seeking verification.

 

Yes, my thoughts exactly, they often need help on where to drop the ball. Why is that.  I find it incredibly boring as a fan to watch the official point with the antenna of his walky talky.   Just my view.  What is next, Refs looking at slow motion replays from the Blimp.  If Reed had just taken the drop, we would not have seen that his ball had bounced before settling down.  This bounce was out of his view.  In his judgement and caddie's, the ball was imbedded.  I think he should have just taken the drop, assuming the ball's pitch mark was below the level of the ground.   It was so wet out there that it is possible to embed even on a second bounce as did Reed's ball.  It broke the surface.  He was entitled to relief for sure.

I never suggested what Reed did was dishonorable.  The game is one of honor.  We should trust his decision.  That he took the time to call an Official over is a waste of time in my opinion.  The drop was completely justified and yes, he is entitled to a verification.  I just don't think it was necessary.  Normal golfers emulate professionals.  I don't want to be called over to help someone figure out who to drop from a lateral water hazard nor do I want to be called over to confirm a plugged ball.  Just take the relief.  Like I said, just my view.

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I agree that there was no requirement under the rules.  This may have been enough of a "borderline" judgement that Reed wanted to have his own evaluation confirmed.  "I think this is enough of a lip, I believe what I feel shows the ball is embedded, but I'm not 100% sure.  Please let me know what you think."  And in this specific circumstance, imagine the even greater uproar when the video shows that the ball actually DID bounce.

I think the ball was embedded per the rules.  He was entitled to both the relief and confirmation by an official.  Bringing the official in made it a time consuming mess in my opinion as I explained.    Rub of the Green.  He got lucky with a plugged ball, he should have smiled to the golf gods and taken his drop.  That simple.

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

If Reed had just taken the drop, we would not have seen that his ball had bounced before settling down. 

As the leader, we definitely would have seen that video.  And having seen that, Reed would have been "guilty" because everyone knows the ball cannot embed on the second bounce.  And again, if he was even a little doubtful, the responsible, the honorable thing to do is to have his judgement verified.  Knowing what we do now, it seems pretty likely that the ball wasn't deeply embedded, logical that it wasn't totally clear that it was embedded.

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Yes, my thoughts exactly, they often need help on where to drop the ball. Why is that. 

They want the most favorable location with out breaking the rules. 

I've had situations were I dropped on a cart path because I know I get another free drop.

3 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

If Reed had just taken the drop, we would not have seen that his ball had bounced before settling down. 

Incorrect. He is in the lead. Every shot is under scrutiny. They would have inquired as to why he took a drop and why he didn't call a RO over. 

4 minutes ago, Rippy_72 said:

Normal golfers emulate professionals. 

Not really. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been ask by another golfer my opinion on a rule. 

 

 

[Rippy_72]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

As the leader, we definitely would have seen that video.  And having seen that, Reed would have been "guilty" because everyone knows the ball cannot embed on the second bounce.  And again, if he was even a little doubtful, the responsible, the honorable thing to do is to have his judgement verified.  Knowing what we do now, it seems pretty likely that the ball wasn't deeply embedded, logical that it wasn't totally clear that it was embedded.

The bolded part is where we disagree in principle.  I realize my perspective might be different and I think I explained how I see it.  Thinking about what you wrote and Patrick Reed's past controversies, you are probably right.  He needed to have confirmation.  I suppose I am living in the past, when the older statesmen would have sat him down and splained it to him real clear.   Nowadays, there is so much money and each player is like a Corporation.  We fans have slow motion aerial views.  So, I guess you are right with the new context.  

[Rippy_72]

Thinking back to my youth, a fellow competitor earned the nickname, "hot pencil" that was shortened to 'Pencil".   He never cheated again but the nickname stuck.  Reed will always suffer, probably unfairly.  So, I was wrong.  His besmirched reputation and being on the top of the board made is essential.   It was still a circus.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Rippy_72 said:

So, I was wrong.

You may be a unicorn, unique in online forum conversations.  Its a real treat to have a civil discussion about a topic we disagree on.  I hope I can always follow your example, to examine my own views when different viewpoints are offered.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Rippy_72 said:

If Reed had just taken the drop, we would not have seen that his ball had bounced before settling down.

FWIW I think it was shown live, so we saw the shot and the ball bounce before he even stepped out of the bunker.

The bounce is also largely irrelevant. Balls can embed after a bounce and you still get relief.

2 hours ago, Rippy_72 said:

I don't want to be called over to help someone figure out who to drop from a lateral water hazard nor do I want to be called over to confirm a plugged ball.  Just take the relief.  Like I said, just my view.

Read the responses in the "embedded ball" topic - that guy wants notified of all kinds of things. And thinks Patrick should have had his playing partners come over, or something.

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't at this point. Just like me with the candy.

2 hours ago, Rippy_72 said:

Bringing the official in made it a time consuming mess in my opinion as I explained.

The whole thing took three minutes. This isn't really much of a "delay" in PGA Tour terms.

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

And having seen that, Reed would have been "guilty" because everyone knows the ball cannot embed on the second bounce.

Except that it can, and you get relief, as you know. At least, I think you know that. Maybe you're highlighting how little "everyone" tends to know the Rules of Golf.

1 hour ago, Rippy_72 said:

I suppose I am living in the past, when the older statesmen would have sat him down and splained it to him real clear.

Explained what to him? I'm still not sure.

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Except that it can, and you get relief, as you know. At least, I think you know that. Maybe you're highlighting how little "everyone" tends to know the Rules of Golf.

I know, but in the court of public opinion he'd have been seen as obviously guilty.  Facts don't always matter.