12 HS players DQ’d from Tournament

[JxQx]

Unfortunately it is the kids fault as they were told what tee's to play. It is kinda odd that they used a completely different tee box with a 40 yard difference in hole length. They should have contacted someone if they were in doubt of where to play from.

[Nwehrman]

38 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Why does anyone assume that the tees were supposed to be in the same place for practice and tournament rounds?  When the rules say "Blue Tees", you play the blue tees wherever you find them.  Just because there was bitching in the paper doesn't make what those kids did correct.  They made an assumption, incorrectly as it turned out, and they paid the penalty for it.  End of story.  It's a shame that the marshal was as clueless as the kids were.

My home course resets the tees and recuts the holes every day.  If I play a practice round for the club championship on Wednesday, that has absolutely no bearing on where the tees and holes will be on Saturday.

You guys either aren't understanding or are just too stubborn to realize this isn't totally the fault of the kids. The blue tees were supposed to be at the 172 marker where they hit. The official tournament scorecard said so. Not a generic course scorecard, the State tournament official scorecard. The kids hit from where they were actually supposed to hit, but since someone didn't make sure the markers were in the right spot and wasn't man enough to own that mistake, the kids get penalized. They couldn't see the markers from where they were supposed to hit. Should they have looked a little harder? Yes. Does that change the fact that an adult screwed up? Absolutely not. They did ask someone about it and that person also told them to hit from where they did. Is anyone calling for that persons job?

 

You can put some of the blame on the kids, but the fact that multiple people in charge screwed up doesn't change. They could have easily fixed this but they chose to punish the kids for something that was largely their own fault. 

[GolfLug]

37 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

The blue tees were supposed to be at the 172 marker where they hit. 

I am fairly ignorant about this type of tournament play so I am mainly curious. How do we know that? Just because the official tourney scorecard says so or some other source? If so, is that written in stone that the scorecard yardage and tees (type) have to match.

Edited May 17, 2018 by GolfLug

[Nwehrman]

The official tourney scorecard is where they were supposed to be. They weren't. If they would have seen the blue markers and hit from there they would have been hitting from the right spot per the rules sheet, but the wrong spot per the OFFICIAL scorecard. Someone running the tournament messed up, plain and simple. I don't see how you can possibly blame the kids for that, but apparently I'm alone in feeling that way. The fact that they didn't simply let them re-play the hole from the spot the rest of the groups played or had the rest of the groups play from 172 like they were originally supposed to is beyond me. 

As for how we know these things, some coaches and people that were at the event have made some posts about it. 

[Nwehrman]

@DeadMan I believe he meant tournament officials moving the markers not the players. When they found out the first 4 groups hits from 172 instead of going and telling the rest to hit from the back they should have moved the markers up to 172 where they were supposed to be in the first place, and had the rest of the groups hit from the same spot. Problem solved. 

[Shorty]

On 5/17/2018 at 2:58 AM, Groucho Valentine said:

  That sucks.. 

Its hard to say without knowing the course. The blue tees on that hole could have been in an unusual place not easily seen on the walk up. Its not beyond tournament committees to make that kind of mistake and not put out tees on a hole. Ive seen it happen before. 

You think? I've never heard of someone looking at yardages on a score card to work out where a hole should be played from. You just go to the correctly coloured markers. Not rocket science. You do your distances from there.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Shorty

[Golfingdad]

Guys, I'm sure this will persuade few, if any, to reconsider their opinions, but ...

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bizarre-turn-in-story-of-dqed-high-school-golfers-players-administrators-say-rules-official-told-them-to-hit-from-wrong-tee-then-denied-it?mbid=social_facebook

"According to students, coaches and school administrators, a rules official directed some of the players to hit from the markers that ultimately led to their dismissal..."

[Fourputt]

15 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

The official tourney scorecard is where they were supposed to be. They weren't. If they would have seen the blue markers and hit from there they would have been hitting from the right spot per the rules sheet, but the wrong spot per the OFFICIAL scorecard. Someone running the tournament messed up, plain and simple. I don't see how you can possibly blame the kids for that, but apparently I'm alone in feeling that way. The fact that they didn't simply let them re-play the hole from the spot the rest of the groups played or had the rest of the groups play from 172 like they were originally supposed to is beyond me. 

As for how we know these things, some coaches and people that were at the event have made some posts about it. 

I'm making an assumption here, but when I play in tournaments, the tournament card simply says the same as what the regular course card says for a given set of tees, but the actual placement isn't always where the card would indicate.  All they do is copy the data used on the normal card.  The tees are placed by the committee, and may or may not be set at the yardage indicated on the card.  We still play from the tee set that is specified in the tournament instructions.

[DeadMan]

19 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

@DeadMan I believe he meant tournament officials moving the markers not the players. When they found out the first 4 groups hits from 172 instead of going and telling the rest to hit from the back they should have moved the markers up to 172 where they were supposed to be in the first place, and had the rest of the groups hit from the same spot. Problem solved. 

Tournament officials are not allowed to do that under the Rules of Golf. Decision 33-2b/1:

Quote

33-2b/1

Holes Relocated and/or Tee-Markers Moved During Stroke-Play Round

Q.During a round in a stroke-play competition, one or more holes were relocated and/or tee-markers moved. What is the proper procedure?

A.If this was authorized by the Committee, the round should be declared null and void. In stroke play, the Committee is prohibited from relocating a hole and from moving tee-markers except as provided in the Exception and Note to Rule 33-2b or in circumstances such as those in Decisions 25-1b/4 or 33-2b/1.5.

If this was done without the authority or sanction of the Committee, generally the round should be declared null and void. However, if the course has not been altered significantly and no competitor has been given an undue advantage or disadvantage, the Committee would be justified in letting the round stand.

Also, I've been a decent amount of tournament golf, and others here have played a lot more. The scorecard yardages are meaningless. Meaningless. The tee markers are what matters. Golfers good enough to make it to the state tournament should know this.

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Guys, I'm sure this will persuade few, if any, to reconsider their opinions, but ...

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bizarre-turn-in-story-of-dqed-high-school-golfers-players-administrators-say-rules-official-told-them-to-hit-from-wrong-tee-then-denied-it?mbid=social_facebook

"According to students, coaches and school administrators, a rules official directed some of the players to hit from the markers that ultimately led to their dismissal..."

The comments (I know) to the news article say it was just a marshall, not a rules official. If it was actually a rules official, this is a huge deal.

Edited May 17, 2018 by DeadMan

[HJJ003]

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Guys, I'm sure this will persuade few, if any, to reconsider their opinions, but ...

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bizarre-turn-in-story-of-dqed-high-school-golfers-players-administrators-say-rules-official-told-them-to-hit-from-wrong-tee-then-denied-it?mbid=social_facebook

"According to students, coaches and school administrators, a rules official directed some of the players to hit from the markers that ultimately led to their dismissal..."

It’s a “he said-he said” argument now. If it was just a Marshall then all on the kids, but rules official would be different. But only people involved know what really happened. 

[Nwehrman]

So the word of one rules official or the word of coaches, administrators, players and spectators? I know where my money would be but with as quick as everyone in here was to throw the kids under the bus I assume I’m alone there as well. But even if it was just a course Marshall, If he/she is out there for a state tournament should they not have still known? Or at the very least, when asked they should have gotten with someone who knew for sure.

 

It it has been said by many people who would know, that the markers were supposed to be at 172. So if you want to blame the kids for not hitting at the markers that’s fine, but you should probably also blame the people running a STATE TOURNAMENT for not ensuring the markers were in the correct location. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Nwehrman

[iacas]

10 hours ago, rehmwa said:

If there was a real level field here, then if those groups were DQ'd for a mistake solely on their own actions, then the officials should have been completely silent for the rest of the field (unless the question was directly initiated by the kids) and also let the rest of them fail on not on their own merit.

That's not really accurate. Rules Officials are supposed to prevent the rules infractions that they can prevent.

They alerted those they could. Just like they might point out to one player that they see taking a drop in an improper place and might not see another person doing the same thing.

4 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

@iacas They didn’t assume the markers were in the wrong spot. The markers WERE in the wrong spot. They hit from where they were supposed to hit as per the official tournament scorecard.

1. Scorecard yardages are irrelevant.
2. They were instructed to hit from the blue tees. They did not.

There is no "right" spot except where the committee placed them. Thus, they played from the wrong spot.

4 hours ago, krupa said:

The 4 groups that were DQ'd were the first four groups that played the hole. If they had just moved the tee markers up, everyone else would have played the same course.

That's not what you do.

3 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Why does anyone assume that the tees were supposed to be in the same place for practice and tournament rounds?  When the rules say "Blue Tees", you play the blue tees wherever you find them.

And if you're not sure if they're in the right spot, particularly if you're the first group, you ask a rules official.

2 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

You guys either aren't understanding or are just too stubborn to realize this isn't totally the fault of the kids.

No, that's not it. The responsibility lies with the player.

2 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

The blue tees were supposed to be at the 172 marker where they hit. The official tournament scorecard said so. Not a generic course scorecard, the State tournament official scorecard.

I coach a college team. We just played in the NCAA National championship.

Guess what? On one hole the tournament scorecard and sign had a yardage that was over 60 yards off - they moved the tees up but couldn't re-print the signs OR the scorecards.

2 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

The kids hit from where they were actually supposed to hit, but since someone didn't make sure the markers were in the right spot and wasn't man enough to own that mistake, the kids get penalized.

The markers define where they are "supposed" to hit from. Thus, this stuff is wrong: they didn't hit from the right spot.

2 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

Should they have looked a little harder? Yes. Does that change the fact that an adult screwed up? Absolutely not. They did ask someone about it and that person also told them to hit from where they did. Is anyone calling for that persons job?

A volunteer marshal's "job?" He seems to have made the same mistake as the players.

Missy Jones in the article even stated what we're saying: the kids are ultimately at fault, and they should have challenged the people more.

Is she "not understanding" or just "stubborn" too?

2 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

You can put some of the blame on the kids, but the fact that multiple people in charge screwed up doesn't change. They could have easily fixed this but they chose to punish the kids for something that was largely their own fault. 

The vast majority of the fault lies with the kids. You play the course under the rules and as marked. If you're questioning something, you play two balls or find an actual rules official. If you still don't agree, you press.

Players are responsible for following the Rules of the game.

1 hour ago, Nwehrman said:

The official tourney scorecard is where they were supposed to be.

No, it isn't. "Where they were supposed to be" is determined by the location of the tee markers.

1 hour ago, Nwehrman said:

If they would have seen the blue markers and hit from there they would have been hitting from the right spot per the rules sheet, but the wrong spot per the OFFICIAL scorecard.

You're assigning way too much weight to the official scorecard.

The RULES are what matter, and the location of the markers, NOT the scorecard yardage. The scorecard yardage does not define a teeing area.

1 hour ago, Nwehrman said:

Someone running the tournament messed up, plain and simple. I don't see how you can possibly blame the kids for that, but apparently I'm alone in feeling that way.

Because, again, the players are responsible for following the Rules.

The USGA doesn't see it your way.

1 hour ago, Nwehrman said:

The fact that they didn't simply let them re-play the hole from the spot the rest of the groups played or had the rest of the groups play from 172 like they were originally supposed to is beyond me.

That would not be within the Rules of Golf.

42 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

So the word of one rules official or the word of coaches, administrators, players and spectators? I know where my money would be but with as quick as everyone in here was to throw the kids under the bus I assume I’m alone there as well. But even if it was just a course Marshall, If he/she is out there for a state tournament should they not have still known? Or at the very least, when asked they should have gotten with someone who knew for sure.

A volunteer marshal, even at the NCAA National Championship, doesn't know these kinds of things. They're out there to help refill water jugs, point to balls they see in the rough or trees, etc. They're not rules experts. They're not members of the Committee.

42 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

It it has been said by many people who would know, that the markers were supposed to be at 172.

So what? Fact of the matter is… they weren't.

---

If an actual Rules Official told them to play from those tee markers - which I doubt at this point, for a few reasons - then they have a case. I'd have still perhaps asked to play two balls, or have a recognizable rules official or member of the committee verify this.

[Shorty]

3 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

They did ask someone about it and that person also told them to hit from where they did. Is anyone calling for that persons job?

You can put some of the blame on the kids, but the fact that multiple people in charge screwed up doesn't change. They could have easily fixed this but they chose to punish the kids for something that was largely their own fault. 

What? If I am supposed to playing from the white tees and someone says "You hit from the blue tees on this hole", I'm assuming that they are stupid and/or wrong. The only way I would do it if there was a communication that CLEARLY stated something like "The club only has 17 sets of white tee markers because of an overnight theft (or whatever). For this (or whatever) reason, please be advised that on hole X, blue markers are being used."

[sjduffers]

Was disqualification the proper penalty? The penalty for teeing from the wrong spot (i.e. outside the rectangle made of the tee markers and the 2 club lengths) is 2 strokes, is it not? Does the player need to re-tee from the correct spot (inside the rectangle for the proper tees) and then add 2 strokes, or does the original tee shot (from the wrong place) count and the 2 strokes are then added? I could look it up, but I am sure you guys know the answer off the top of your head! 

[Nwehrman]

If I am a 16 year old kid and I head up to where I know the markers are supposed to be (and before you quote me and say they are supposed to be wherever they put them, because from what I’ve read they forgot to move them to the intended location) and I don’t see them even after looking around, so I ask an adult, whether it was a Marshall or an official since apparently that’s still up in the air, and they tell me to hit from where I’m at, I would have done the same thing. If you see that as completely my fault then okay, we agree to disagree, but these aren’t pros or even college players. They are high school kids, some of whom probably aren’t even old enough to drive. 

[Vinsk]

https://apple.news/AUJN6exrMMAa3LFTDzOUD9g

It just seems odd that the ‘volunteer rules official’ would instruct the kids to play the red tees. Again, who the hell goes by score card yardages?

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Was disqualification the proper penalty? The penalty for teeing from the wrong spot (i.e. outside the rectangle made of the tee markers and the 2 club lengths) is 2 strokes, is it not?

Keep reading.

11-4b: http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-11,11-4

31 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Does the player need to re-tee from the correct spot (inside the rectangle for the proper tees) and then add 2 strokes, or does the original tee shot (from the wrong place) count and the 2 strokes are then added? I could look it up, but I am sure you guys know the answer off the top of your head! 

Or just look it up and then you'll learn a little!

29 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

If I am a 16 year old kid and I head up to where I know the markers are supposed to be (and before you quote me and say they are supposed to be wherever they put them, because from what I’ve read they forgot to move them to the intended location)

It doesn't matter that they forgot to move them.

29 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

… and I don’t see them even after looking around…

IIRC the article indicated that many of the DQed kids properly located and were even about to play from the blue tees. So there's virtually nothing to support the idea that they "didn't see them even after looking around."

29 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

so I ask an adult, whether it was a Marshall or an official since apparently that’s still up in the air, and they tell me to hit from where I’m at, I would have done the same thing.

And you'd have been just as deserving of a DQ as they were.

I would not have done what they did.

[Nwehrman]

Essentially the officials made a mistake forgetting to move the markers, which in turn caused some of the golfers to make a mistake hitting from the wrong area. The kids get punished by being DQ’d, the officials can hide behind the Rules of Golf. Justify it however you want, it’s not right.