12 HS players DQ’d from Tournament

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Nwehrman said:

Oh you mean the rules that the tournament official told them? To hit from the reds? That's a really solid post you made.

Dude.

Also, it’s clear you’re here JUST to post on this topic, and you’ve gone well beyond the point where you’re just repeating yourself.

So two suggestions…

1. Post elsewhere. Lots of great topics here.
2. Stop. You’re only repeating yourself anyway.

What is your affiliation with the affected students anyway?

I have no affiliation except that I’m a Rules Official. And I doubt the “volunteer” was a Rules official either. Were I he, I would have called it in. I’d never have just answered and moved on. Not for something like that.

[Golfingdad]

55 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Wow. What’s actually baffling is your lack of understanding of this. ‘Play the red tees.’ The rules sheet says to play the Blue ..why are you telling us to play the red? If the ‘official’ told a player to pick his ball up on the green before marking it ...should he do it? These aren’t 8 year olds out there. They’re 17-18 year olds. Follow the rules sheet. Period. When it’s that clear and simple? No listen to an ‘official’ who is going by a score card yardage? Gimme a break. 

Sorry, you’re 100% wrong. It was an unfortunate situation but they would never had been questioned for anything had they played from the BLUE TEES. I don’t care if the USGA President told them to play the reds. Had they simply stated WHAT THEY KNEW THE RULES SHEET STATED this would’ve never happened. What part of that do you not believe or understand?

You guys are being real hard headed about this.   Why do you keep giving the dude crap for being understanding and empathetic towards 12 teenage kids for listening when an adult RULES OFFICIAL told them where to hit from?

 

[Nwehrman]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Dude.

Also, it’s clear you’re here JUST to post on this topic, and you’ve gone well beyond the point where you’re just repeating yourself.

So two suggestions…

1. Post elsewhere. Lots of great topics here.
2. Stop. You’re only repeating yourself anyway.

What is your affiliation with the affected students anyway?

I have no affiliation except that I’m a Rules Official. And I doubt the “volunteer” was a Rules official either. Were I he, I would have called it in. I’d never have just answered and moved on. Not for something like that.

I have posted elsewhere. I registered a day ago because I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss but I guess I didn't realize everyone here literally worships the rulebook. 

 

I have no affiliation with anyone involved. I live on the other side of the country. You can doubt that the volunteer was a rules official all you want, but when 20ish people that were involved are saying that he was, I'll take their word over your doubts.

2 hours ago, Asheville said:

You're correct. You don't understand competitive golf. While you might "understand" noodle it around in the fairway and gimme golf you don't know Conditions of Competitions/Notice to Competitors golf.

You got me. I have never played competitive golf. I'm just starting to take the game seriously and trying to get better. I have however played many other competitive sports and in those sports whatever the ref, umpire, or official says, goes. I don't see why golf would be any different but what do I know, apparently I just go out there and hit the ball all over the course.

[Fourputt]

21 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

I have posted elsewhere. I registered a day ago because I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss but I guess I didn't realize everyone here literally worships the rulebook. 

 

I have no affiliation with anyone involved. I live on the other side of the country. You can doubt that the volunteer was a rules official all you want, but when 20ish people that were involved are saying that he was, I'll take their word over your doubts.

You got me. I have never played competitive golf. I'm just starting to take the game seriously and trying to get better. I have however played many other competitive sports and in those sports whatever the ref, umpire, or official says, goes. I don't see why golf would be any different but what do I know, apparently I just go out there and hit the ball all over the course.

This is the "Rules Of Golf" forum, so of course we are quite pedantic about the rules.  I've played in tournaments for more than 25 years, I've worked at a golf course where high school competitions were held, and I've worked as a rules official for the Colorado Golf Association.  The answers you get here are based on the rules, and the rules state that when a condition of the competition is that the players play from a certain tee, that is the tee they play from.  If there is a question, then that should be resolved before they play, particularly when they have received contradictory information.  If they can't get a timely response, then they have the right to play a second ball (Rule 3-3) and let the committee sort out what is correct later.  They availed themselves of none of those options, failed to play from the correct teeing ground, and were subsequently and correctly disqualified. 

When you play golf competitively, you had best learn the rules or you can expect to eventually fall afoul of them.

And, by the way, nothing here has confirmed that the individual the coach spoke to was actually a rules official.  If he was, as you stated in your OP, a marshal, then he is not an "official" as far as it pertains to the tournament.  I worked as a marshal for a PGA Tour stop for several years, and we were expressly instructed not to even speak to the players unless they spoke first, and only then to help them in finding their ball after an errant shot.  We were not to offer rules information even if asked, no matter how correct it might be, because we were NOT rules officials.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Fourputt

[Nwehrman]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

If there is a question, then that should be resolved before they play, particularly when they have received contradictory information.  If they can't get a timely response, then they have the right to play a second ball (Rule 3-3) and let the committee sort out what is correct later.  They availed themselves of none of those options, failed to play from the correct teeing ground, and were subsequently and correctly disqualified. 

So you haven't read the article posted earlier in this thread obviously. They literally did exactly what you said they should have, other than playing a second ball. They did have a question. They asked it. It was answered by a rules official. They followed what the rules official said. There was no need for hitting a second ball because there question was answered by someone who SHOULD KNOW.

 

I'll stop posting in this thread because at this point I am just repeating myself to a bunch of people who either have absolutely zero reading comprehension or haven't even bothered to look into what actually happened yet decided to post here blaming the kids anyways. Lastly, the DQ is fine. It's really shitty for the kids but technically they didn't hit from the correct tees, but the rules official is absolutely to blame for that just as much or more than they are.

[Shorty]

47 minutes ago, Nwehrman said:

 I didn't realize everyone here literally worships the rulebook. 

What a peculiar turn of phrase. "Literally"? Really.

You might want to look up the meaning of two words:

1. literally

2. worship

[Rulesman]

16 hours ago, DeadMan said:

The GolfDigest article is a little confusing on that point. In places, it calls the guy a rules official. In other places, it calls him a marshal. Which is kind of an important difference.

If it's actually a rules official that told them to play from the wrong place, it changes the situation for me.

Indeed. If the person was a Referee (incidentally the term Rules Official is no longer used), 34-2/2 would apply.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-34,d34-2-2

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Rulesman

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

when an adult RULES OFFICIAL told them where to hit from?

@Golfingdad, thing is, there’s been no hard evidence that he was not merely a marshal. His actions imply very strongly that he was not a RO.

And for the kids putting on the green it was too late to invoke 3-3.

6 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

I didn't realize everyone here literally worships the rulebook. 

Look at the forum in which you’re posting. Do you want answers or “feel good” excuse making?

6 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

You can doubt that the volunteer was a rules official all you want, but when 20ish people that were involved are saying that he was, I'll take their word over your doubts.

It’s the word of people who couldn’t read or follow the rules. None of this guy’s actions are consistent with what an actual RO would do. He got a basic rule wrong. Didn’t call or radio anyone. Etc.

I don’t take their word for anything. I think they probably spoke to a marshal.

6 hours ago, Fourputt said:

And, by the way, nothing here has confirmed that the individual the coach spoke to was actually a rules official.  If he was, as you stated in your OP, a marshal, then he is not an "official" as far as it pertains to the tournament.  I worked as a marshal for a PGA Tour stop for several years, and we were expressly instructed not to even speak to the players unless they spoke first, and only then to help them in finding their ball after an errant shot.  We were not to offer rules information even if asked, no matter how correct it might be, because we were NOT rules officials.

This.

And correct, they didn’t avail themselves of 3-3.

6 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

So you haven't read the article posted earlier in this thread obviously. They literally did exactly what you said they should have, other than playing a second ball. They did have a question. They asked it. It was answered by a rules official. They followed what the rules official said. There was no need for hitting a second ball because there question was answered by someone who SHOULD KNOW.

They didn’t use 3-3.

And I don’t think the guy was a RO.

Were he actually one, they’d have been not DQed for acting at his direction.

6 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

I'll stop posting in this thread because at this point I am just repeating myself to a bunch of people who either have absolutely zero reading comprehension or haven't even bothered to look into what actually happened yet decided to post here blaming the kids anyways. Lastly, the DQ is fine. It's really shitty for the kids but technically they didn't hit from the correct tees, but the rules official is absolutely to blame for that just as much or more than they are.

Enough of the insults man. My reading comprehension is fine. Truth is YOU don’t know what “actually happened” either.

The kids were ultimately at fault unless the guy was actually a RO for that event. I don’t believe he was.

I’ve had to DQ a kid on my own team who was two under at the time. I had to assign basically four penalty strokes to a kid who was -4 at the time. Also on my team. The Rules are important.

I just disagree with you. The kids are at fault.

[Asheville]

The furor would be just as great, though of a different flavor, had the Committee "John Wayned" the thing by departing from the Rules of Golf and invented some new procedure.

[JonMA1]

11 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

You guys are being real hard headed about this.   Why do you keep giving the dude crap for being understanding and empathetic towards 12 teenage kids for listening when an adult RULES OFFICIAL told them where to hit from?

 

 

8 hours ago, Nwehrman said:

I'll stop posting in this thread because at this point I am just repeating myself to a bunch of people who either have absolutely zero reading comprehension or haven't even bothered to look into what actually happened yet decided to post here blaming the kids anyways. Lastly, the DQ is fine. It's really shitty for the kids but technically they didn't hit from the correct tees, but the rules official is absolutely to blame for that just as much or more than they are.

I don't know the details and can only speak in generalities, but I agree with where you guys are coming from.

I tend to think in terms of black and white when it comes to the rules of golf and they probably should have been DQ'd. But just skimming through this thread and article as quickly as I did, I don't think the kids were incredibly stupid as some have indicated.

All I can say is that its sucks for the kids if an adult (whether a rules official or a marshal) gave incorrect information, but it's a lesson learned (yes, I'm admitting sports does occasionally provide life lessons). 

Just because someone is an adult and/or an official doesn't make them idiot proof. The sad reality is that adults are not only wrong about many things, they will often communicate the wrong information with a great deal of conviction. I've seen the head coach of a high school baseball team lose a championship game due to his lack of knowledge with the rules. Baseball rules are much simpler than the rules of golf, IMO.

The lesson is to educate yourselves to the point where you are not easily swayed by wrong information. It isn't always easy, but it can be important with other facets of life such as the law.

As for adults thinking they would have acted different, sorry but I'm not buying it with most (again, none of us seem to know exactly what happened). Generally speaking, hindsight is 20/20. The older we get the smarter, the more confident and the more assertive we used to be. 

As for these kids, it's only high school sports. If this is anywhere near the top of the list of bad things that will happen in their lives, they should consider themselves fortunate.

[Vinsk]

13 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

You guys are being real hard headed about this.   Why do you keep giving the dude crap for being understanding and empathetic towards 12 teenage kids for listening when an adult RULES OFFICIAL told them where to hit from?

 

 No, that’s not it. @Nwehrman has repeatedly implied the kids were not at fault. ‘What were they supposed to do when an ‘official’ tells them to play the red tees?”

The answer is to do WHAT IS RIGHT AND PLAY BY THE RULES. The adults involved caused some confusion but it was a simple solution that a HS level player should’ve easily remedied. Of course I feel bad for the kids ....the same way I feel bad if a kid signs an incorrect score card. Unfortunate, but the kids fault. Damn, what’s so difficult about this? Stop the PC “everybody should get a trophy” attitude and face it for what it is. A mistake by the kids to learn from. Done.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

I tend to think in terms of black and white when it comes to the rules of golf and they probably should have been DQ'd. But just skimming through this thread and article as quickly as I did, I don't think the kids were incredibly stupid as some have indicated.

Where has that been said, the bold?

@p1n9183 called it a "stupid mistake." @Nwehrman called them "stupid kids" in post #66 (in putting words in the mouths of @Shorty).

Nobody, @JonMA1, has said that the kids were "incredibly stupid." Not a one.

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

All I can say is that its sucks for the kids if an adult (whether a rules official or a marshal) gave incorrect information, but it's a lesson learned (yes, I'm admitting sports does occasionally provide life lessons).

Yep.

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

Just because someone is an adult and/or an official doesn't make them idiot proof. The sad reality is that adults are not only wrong about many things, they will often communicate the wrong information with a great deal of conviction. I've seen the head coach of a high school baseball team lose a championship game due to his lack of knowledge with the rules. Baseball rules are much simpler than the rules of golf, IMO.

Which is why the Rules of Golf cover such a situation: if an actual rules official tells the players to break the rules, they aren't penalized.

That's likely not what happened here - it was probably a marshal or a volunteer, not a rules official.

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

The lesson is to educate yourselves to the point where you are not easily swayed by wrong information. It isn't always easy, but it can be important with other facets of life such as the law.

As for adults thinking they would have acted different, sorry but I'm not buying it with most (again, none of us seem to know exactly what happened). Generally speaking, hindsight is 20/20. The older we get the smarter, the more confident and the more assertive we used to be.

You don't even need that much education: read 3-3 and know how to enact it.

Would I have done this as a kid? Well, probably, because I was obsessive and had ordered a copy of the Decisions manual before the USGA even had a website, as a 16-year-old. But I can imagine a LOT of kids doing exactly as they did.

But, just because I can easily see other kids doing exactly the same… That doesn't mean what they did was right or that they shouldn't have been DQed.

[DeadMan]

10 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Indeed. If the person was a Referee (incidentally the term Rules Official is no longer used), 34-2/2 would apply.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-34,d34-2-2

 

Hypothetically, if this whole thing happened and it was a referee that told them to hit from the wrong tee, what’s the solution? It seems to me that you’d have to declare the whole round null and void. Are there other options after the round is over?

[Golfingdad]

45 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

 No, that’s not it. @Nwehrman has repeatedly implied the kids were not at fault. ‘What were they supposed to do when an ‘official’ tells them to play the red tees?”

The answer is to do WHAT IS RIGHT AND PLAY BY THE RULES. The adults involved caused some confusion but it was a simple solution that a HS level player should’ve easily remedied. Of course I feel bad for the kids ....the same way I feel bad if a kid signs an incorrect score card. Unfortunate, but the kids fault. Damn, what’s so difficult about this? Stop the PC “everybody should get a trophy” attitude and face it for what it is. A mistake by the kids to learn from. Done.

Oh brother

[Vinsk]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

Oh brother

Yeah...no kiddin... let it go. The kids will be fine. Great learning experience. 

[Vinsk]

All I’m trying to say is that this wasn’t an issue on an obscure ruling, an ambiguous stake, a hazard line, casual water, OB. This was a basic rule of the tournament. Blue tees. Ok. Good so far right? I don’t mean to be condescending just trying to explain my point.

As soon as the boys questioned the tee based on the score card yardage they were goofing up. Walk to the tee, find the blues and that’s where you play. That’s what was posted on their rule sheet.

At that point, it doesn’t require any official of any kind. “Blue Tees”. There’s nothing ambiguous about that. It doesn't matter what ANYBODY says regarding that. Play the blue tees. 

Please explain to me how choosing to not play the Blue Tees was in any way a fair or wise decision. The boys didn’t even know who the person was telling them INCORRECT information. Again, these are HS kids, not little kids. 

Sorry if I annoyed anyone.  

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

Hypothetically, if this whole thing happened and it was a referee that told them to hit from the wrong tee, what’s the solution? It seems to me that you’d have to declare the whole round null and void. Are there other options after the round is over?

Did you read the decision?

If the Referee got it wrong the players are protected and can carry on without any penalty.

[Fourputt]

3 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Did you read the decision?

If the Referee got it wrong the players are protected and can carry on without any penalty.

The fact that they were disqualified tells us that the person who was asked was NOT a referee, not a member of the committee, not a "rules official".  If he had been such, they would have been given a free pass, or even possibly some other course like having their play to that point canceled and starting over.  I don't know exactly how it might be resolved, but they would not have been DQed.