Is Phil Mickelson Going Nuts?: Hitting a moving ball at US Open

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you. Intent matters. I would have given him a DQ. All I'm saying is the that way the two rules are written, I can see how they came to this conclusion.

I can too. I'm just saying that when there's overlap, as there is here… I think it being Phil Mickelson played a role.

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

Basically once they ruled he made a stroke (which he clearly did), it automatically fell under 14-5 because of the first exception to 1-2. There's no ambiguity there in how it's written at all.

The note under 14-5 refers back to 1-2, though. He both made a stroke AND purposefully deflected the ball.

2 minutes ago, Chris223 said:

Thats just crap, I don’t even know how to respond to that, especially coming from you.  Where did I EVER bring anything away from the golf course into my discussion about Phil and me being a fan.

When did I EVER say you had to abide by the same rules of fandom as I do?

5 minutes ago, Chris223 said:

Remember when I said athletes aren’t saints?  I’m a Phil fan who enjoys watching him play golf and still do after yesterday... doesn’t make him a role model, pro athletes make horrific role models.

I didn't care much about the SEC stuff or other "off the field" actions either. Some hate his gambling. I've heard some stories… man… But yesterday wasn't "off the field" actions.

At some point, though, the off-the-field stuff might inform who the man is, and yesterday we saw more about who Phil the golfer is and likely always has been.

And in the vein of your post, again, when did I EVER say that Phil should be a role model, or that I've ever expected an athlete to be a role model? I'm on record as saying the opposite quite a few times.

[Chris223]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

I can too. I'm just saying that when there's overlap, as there is here… I think it being Phil Mickelson played a role.

The note under 14-5 refers back to 1-2, though. He both made a stroke AND purposefully deflected the ball.

When did I EVER say you had to abide by the same rules of fandom as I do?

I didn't care much about the SEC stuff or other "off the field" actions either. Some hate his gambling. I've heard some stories… man… But yesterday wasn't "off the field" actions.

At some point, though, the off-the-field stuff might inform who the man is, and yesterday we saw more about who Phil the golfer is and likely always has been.

And in the vein of your post, again, when did I EVER say that Phil should be a role model, or that I've ever expected an athlete to be a role model? I'm on record as saying the opposite quite a few times.

I am more annoyed that you suggested I gave or would automatically give him a pass over stuff like that.  I never brought up anything away from golf, you did.  

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Chris223 said:

I am more annoyed that you suggested I gave or would automatically give him a pass over stuff like that.  I never brought up anything away from golf, you did.  

Okay, are you actually "done" now?

You like Phil. You don't think what he did yesterday was too bad. Others disagree.

That about sum it up?

[Vinsk]

15 minutes ago, Chris223 said:

I am more annoyed that you suggested I gave or would automatically give him a pass over stuff like that.  I never brought up anything away from golf, you did.  

Well as Phil would say, ‘Toughen up.’

[Aflighter]

57 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Well as Phil would say, ‘Toughen up.’

I toughened up and gave him a pass cause he's my boy.He only did it cause he was out of it.No way Phil does that if he's in contention.I seriously doubt Phil cares what people think.He would have happily took the day off if they DQ him.Slapping at a ball rolling off green isn't end of the world folks.

[amished]

Regardless of whether or not you think the penalty that the USGA gave him was the right one or not, I thought it was a fun thing for Phil to do.

As a hacker, I've had plenty of shots that I skull'd over the green, or a putt I misread so horribly that it's nowhere close or was going to go down a ridge that I never should've gotten close to, especially near the end of a round where I didn't play particularly well.  In those situations I've asked my partners to stop the ball and pick it up for me, or I've putt the ball again after I duff the putt and it's close enough to me to do so.

None of these rounds go towards a handicap round for me, nor are they in a competition.  So while the circumstances are different I can certainly empathize with the sentiment to just get the hell off the green without expending too much more energy.  It showed the same relatability that he's always had with his fans to me; the willingness to go for it, hit the hero shot and the consequences be damned.  

I 100% don't understand the sentiment that it will tarnish his reputation to do what he did in this situation, though.  It seems like he wasn't aware of what the ruling would be by asking the rules official after the hole, so even if he got DQ'd, it's not the first time a player has gotten DQ'd from a tournament.

[fishgolf]

3 minutes ago, Aflighter said:

I toughened up and gave him a pass cause he's my boy.He only did it cause he was out of it.No way Phil does that if he's in contention.I seriously doubt Phil cares what people think.He would have happily took the day off if they DQ him.Slapping at a ball rolling off green isn't end of the world folks.

Same sediment here.  This situation pales to what Phil has brought to the game of golf.  I would disagree that he does not care about what people think - he does IMO.  But I think he does only to the extent that someone believes he either lied about his intention or that he was given leeway others would not have received. Those that are not his fans anyway, and who want to spin this up into something its not, is who he is telling to "toughen up". As a fan am I embarrassed about the action, yes, but it's not a capital offense.

[reidsou]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

It's still invoking Rule 28 ("Ball Unplayable"). It directs you, if you wish, to use the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1, IIRC.

 

Penalty of "Stroke and distance" is mandatory under rule 27-1b and 27-1c (OB or lost),  optional under rule 26 and rule 28 (water hazard or unplayable). It's a fine point, but rule 27-1a also allows "stroke and distance" without reference to any other rule. (Avoids ambiguity because, for example, a ball may not be deemed unplayable in a water hazard.) 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Aflighter said:

Slapping at a ball rolling off green isn't end of the world folks.

I hate that argument. Nobody here is acting like it is.

1 hour ago, amished said:

Regardless of whether or not you think the penalty that the USGA gave him was the right one or not, I thought it was a fun thing for Phil to do.

…

None of these rounds go towards a handicap round for me, nor are they in a competition.  So while the circumstances are different I can certainly empathize with the sentiment to just get the hell off the green without expending too much more energy.  It showed the same relatability that he's always had with his fans to me; the willingness to go for it, hit the hero shot and the consequences be damned.

It's relatable to do what he did in the U.S. Open? And "fun"?

1 hour ago, amished said:

I 100% don't understand the sentiment that it will tarnish his reputation to do what he did in this situation, though.  It seems like he wasn't aware of what the ruling would be by asking the rules official after the hole, so even if he got DQ'd, it's not the first time a player has gotten DQ'd from a tournament.

You don't understand how either a) doing that in a U.S. Open, and/or b) lying about it through his teeth and insulting anyone who is miffed can tarnish his reputation?

In a sport where people thought Tiger's reputation was tarnished for spitting on the putting green?

1 hour ago, fishgolf said:

As a fan am I embarrassed about the action, yes, but it's not a capital offense.

Again… nobody's acting like it is.

5 minutes ago, reidsou said:

Penalty of "Stroke and distance" is mandatory under rule 27-1b and 27-1c (OB or lost),  optional under rule 26 and rule 28 (water hazard or unplayable). It's a fine point, but rule 27-1a also allows "stroke and distance" without reference to any other rule. (Avoids ambiguity because, for example, a ball may not be deemed unplayable in a water hazard.) 

The point I was making remains: he would be invoking rule 28, Ball Unplayable. If you want to worry about the semantics of whether he has to actually say "I'm taking an unplayable," correct, he doesn't. He'll be deemed to have done so if he just plays again from that spot.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, fishgolf said:

Slapping at a ball rolling off green isn't end of the world folks.

Neither would Phil being DQ’d.

[Buckeyebowman]

23 hours ago, iacas said:

The Rules of Golf look bad here.

I understand that they're trying to apply 14-5, but what I don't get is that he deflected the ball… but it just happened to be toward the hole.

Mike Davis said that he made a stroke, he didn't "deflect the ball in some other direction." But what about John Daly? Was that also a stroke even though it in no way was going to go in?

What's a "deflection" instead of a "stroke" if you swipe at it? Can anyone just avoid DQing under 1-2 if they can claim to have simply made a stroke?

I don't think you go to 14-5 right away. I think you look at RULE 1 - THE GAME first.

I've heard many strained comparisons to what Mickelson did yesterday as compared to Daly. They are miles apart. Mickelson actually had his two handed putting grip on the putter, and darn near holed it. Daly took a one handed swipe at the ball as it rolled back down the slope toward him, and swatted it across the green if I recall correctly.

And Curtis Strange's comments today make me conclude he is one of the bigger media dumb asses out there! "Just let it roll out, and then putt it back up to the hole." It demonstrates that he doesn't watch his own network's telecast. Ken Brown reenacted the situation perfectly. The ball rolls down into a bowl from where you have to pitch over the bunker to the green.

Sorry Curt, but you can't putt through a bunker! And another hand wringer wondered whether this would become a "habit" on Tour! Please! Not unless governing bodies routinely let courses get away from them.

Yes, Phil's actions were questionable, and his explanation seems to be BS. But none of us were out there playing. Like I said before, I think Mickelson was waving the white flag! Why else the celebration when he parred the hole today?

Watching the Open on Saturday was some mighty uncomfortable viewing. I'm a fan of seeing pros struggle as much as anyone. But Saturday afternoon was just absurd!

[amished]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's relatable to do what he did in the U.S. Open? And "fun"?

Yes.  Why not?  Most of my friends who golf have moments where they hit a bad shot and "give up".  That's what it looked like Phil did in the heat of the moment on the green.

 

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

You don't understand how either a) doing that in a U.S. Open, and/or b) lying about it through his teeth and insulting anyone who is miffed can tarnish his reputation?

In a sport where people thought Tiger's reputation was tarnished for spitting on the putting green?

He broke a rule that arguably should've gotten him DQ'd out of a tournament.  So what?  All that link/story tells me is that the golf world will blow anything out of proportion.  Phil's action cost nobody but himself anything as it pertains to the tournament.  I mean, in 5 years are we going to look back at one of the top 5-10 golfers of all time and say "Oh, but he broke the rules at the U.S. Open that one time"?  I can't see that happening.  So yes, I don't understand how his hitting a moving ball will matter one bit.

I don't like that he made something up afterwards, seems like he just tried to BS his way through a reasoning.  His comments will not affect me, nor will it even affect next weeks golf.

So, will it affect his reputation?  Only to people that want to make the Monkey House a thing "fit for a Christian family to see."

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I've heard many strained comparisons to what Mickelson did yesterday as compared to Daly. They are miles apart. Mickelson actually had his two handed putting grip on the putter, and darn near holed it. Daly took a one handed swipe at the ball as it rolled back down the slope toward him, and swatted it across the green if I recall correctly.

Those types of differences aren't really relevant from a rules perspective.

Just now, amished said:

Yes.  Why not?  Most of my friends who golf have moments where they hit a bad shot and "give up".  That's what it looked like Phil did in the heat of the moment on the green.

It's the U.S. Open. It's not you and your buddies shooting 88 on a random Saturday.

Just now, amished said:

I mean, in 5 years are we going to look back at one of the top 5-10 golfers of all time and say "Oh, but he broke the rules at the U.S. Open that one time"?  I can't see that happening.

Some will, yeah.

Some of us value decorum, following the rules, behaving like a professional, and playing the game with honesty and integrity.

The latter two bother me the most. Does it change my life? Will I think about this even Wednesday? No, and probably not.

Just now, amished said:

I don't like that he made something up afterwards, seems like he just tried to BS his way through a reasoning.

He lied.

[amished]

Phil broke the rules, and was punished by the rules.  In my book, that's the end of the story.

What else would you want to see happen?  Not allowing him entry into the next tournament? A monetary fine?  Something else?

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, amished said:

Phil broke the rules, and was punished by the rules.  In my book, that's the end of the story.

What else would you want to see happen?  Not allowing him entry into the next tournament? A monetary fine?  Something else?

Where did you come up with those things? Nobody's talked about anything like that.

You act like he accidentally incurred some normal penalty. No, this was somewhat remarkable, and not just here on TST, and so was his BS list of lies afterward.

Is it earth-shattering? No. But it's a topic in the golf world, and here.

[turtleback]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

Where did you come up with those things? Nobody's talked about anything like that.

You act like he accidentally incurred some normal penalty. No, this was somewhat remarkable, and not just here on TST, and so was his BS list of lies afterward.

Is it earth-shattering? No. But it's a topic in the golf world, and here.

You are making too big a deal over Phil making a travesty of the game and then lying through his teeth about it.  Even those who minimize the initial offense have admitted his stated reason was BS and a lie.  Why would he lie?  Because he realized how bad this would look but rather than just admitting the truth he decided to brazen it out. 

Like you I have softened towards Phil in recent years and argued for him as being #3 behind Tiger & Jack.  I wonder how those who use Tiger's failings against him in the rankings will take this faux pas by Phil into account.  

[sac1]

Mickelson, no surprise on his conduct here.  But the Usga not DQing him, that is the most distasteful part.  He intentionally deflected the path of the ball, that was his first and foremost intention , plain to anyone who was watching, whether he did that by using his putter or his shoe is irrelevant and no way the rule of “making a stroke at a moving balll” should “trump” it. 

Gutless, shameful officials,

Edited June 18, 2018 by sac1
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[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, turtleback said:

You are making too big a deal over Phil making a travesty of the game and then lying through his teeth about it.  Even those who minimize the initial offense have admitted his stated reason was BS and a lie.  Why would he lie?  Because he realized how bad this would look but rather than just admitting the truth he decided to brazen it out. 

Like you I have softened towards Phil in recent years and argued for him as being #3 behind Tiger & Jack.  I wonder how those who use Tiger's failings against him in the rankings will take this faux pas by Phil into account.  

I don't think Erik is making too big of a deal. He is just responding to posters who are saying it is not a big deal. In the scope of this tournament, it is a big deal. PM's reaction afterward made it much, much worse. He won $27,000, that someone else should have got and valuable points towards OWGR and FedEx. He disrespected his opponents and flaunted it afterward. 

I too have enjoyed watching Mickelson's rescue shots over the years, but now I would rather watch other players who aren't immensely arrogant and disrespectful to the game and fans of the game.

I have a similar feeling toward JB Holmes after his "so what if I took 5 minutes to lay up on 18" at Torrey Pines debacle. Our viewership pays your salary dude. Don't be an ass.