Kuchar Pays Caddie $5k, Is Shamed, Pays $50k

[saevel25]

50 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

He would be hailed as one hell of a guy and Kuchar would be out $50k which in the world of Kuchar is literally peanuts. Everyone keeps minimizing the caddie’s role (he had a google translator he said he helped keep Kuchar calm) ... but none of us know what he did for Kuchar as a caddie it’s all speculation. A man who’s won $46M on the tour can spend 50k to make another human incredibly happy and help his family who at least played some role in his 1.2M pay out.

This type of logic is BS in my opinion. 

He's made 46 million over 15 seasons. Then you got to consider that he probably ends up losing a big chunk of it to taxes. Let's say he loses 40% of it to taxes. He's probably keeping 1.5 to 2.0 million a year in winnings.

Quote

Athletes file taxes not only in their home state but also in every state—and some cities—in which they play. Not every state uses the same calculation to determine what portion of an athlete's income to tax, and some use different calculations based on the sport

By looking at the PGA Tour Top 10 Finishes, Kuchar plays in about 20-23 events a year. So, after taxes he makes about 80-85K a tournament. At 3K a caddie, he's giving up 3-5% of his average winnings to the Caddie.

If you tell someone they can have 3-5% profit sharing, that is a pretty decent number. I would like 3-5% profit sharing of Apple stock. ;)

Basically you are asking that he gives up 60-65% of his after tax winnings per tournament to the caddie!

Let's say he gives away 50K per tournament, that would be giving away 1.1 million dollars over the course of one season.

Guess what, if he gives out 50K then all he gets asked about is, "What about the next guy?"

Yea, this is a big misconception on what Kuchar is actually paying someone. People just see big total numbers and don't break it down. It gets a bit better for Kuchar if you consider the other expenses of playing on the PGA Tour that I did not account for. That 3-5% can easily jump to 6-10% if he's a bit luxurious in his accommodations while traveling to these 20-24 events.

Let's take into account that this guy is being paid 136 dollars an hour to carry a bag (assuming a 5.5 hour round)

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by saevel25

[Vinsk]

12 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

This type of logic is BS in my opinion. 

You’re going to argue that $50k is damage or a strain for Kuchar to pay? Look, Kuchar wasn’t wrong. I don’t think he deserves to be ridiculed as he carried out what he claims to have been the deal. But don’t tell me Kuchar can’t afford to throw a poor local 50k who caddied for him after winning $1.2M before taxes. There’s no argument to that. Period. Giving this caddie 50k is 100% unnecessary but don’t tell me the reason he didn’t was based on financial hardship. 

[ChetlovesMer]

Hey Guys,

I don't want to be throwing fuel on this fire. But the amount Kuchar, or anyone really has made over their career should be inconsequential. 

When you enter ANY contract (have your roof repaired... I just did that, buy a car, lawn care service, what ever...) You do not enter that contract based on your lifetime earnings. Example, the kid that mows my lawn charges $125.00 per acre, I have 0.40 acres, therefore I pay him $50.00 to mow my lawn. Our negotiation of price never came down to my lifetime earnings. 

I'm not saying Kuchar was fair, I'm not saying he wasn't fair, I'm not saying he was cheap, I'm not saying he wasn't cheap.

All I'm saying is LIFETIME EARNINGS should play ZERO part in the discussion. 

[saevel25]

13 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

But don’t tell me Kuchar can’t afford to throw a poor local 50k who caddied for him after winning $1.2M before taxes. There’s no argument to that. Period. Giving this caddie 50k is 100% unnecessary but don’t tell me the reason he didn’t was based on financial hardship. 

So you are saying that Kuchar needs to give up 62% of his weekly average pay to his caddie? That is what you are advocating if you want Kuchar to give this guy 50K.

Because, the premise is, Kuchar should out of the kindness of his own heart, give the caddie 50K for 24 hours of work. Give the man 2,000 dollars an hour to carry a bag. Fine, that means his regular caddie should be paid more, right? His regular caddie does substantially more work than this guy would. He should be paid more. It also means that he should pay every local caddie that much. Because, the question asked of Kuchar would be, Why not that guy as well?

If that is the case, then Kuchar must pay over 50K per event for his caddies. Averaging 80-85K an event, he would be giving a substantial amount. That is why your logic does not work.It is a financial burden because of the outcome due to the spiral of guilt people will throw on Kuchar. Kuchar did a good thing by giving this man a good percentage of his average event winnings as payment. 

So no, these golfers do not need to subject themselves to the guilt trip that bleeding heart advocates try to impose on them.

This is why the handout mentality is a toxic one. It's a nice thing to do, but it begs the question, "Why not someone else". At some point it has to spot. Then at that point Kuchar is an asshole for not giving every caddie 50K. Might as well stop it at the first person, especially when the person is getting 136 dollars an hour to carry a bag.

[chspeed]

9 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I'm not saying Kuchar was fair, I'm not saying he wasn't fair, I'm not saying he was cheap, I'm not saying he wasn't cheap.

All I'm saying is LIFETIME EARNINGS should play ZERO part in the discussion.  

I agree with this. But I am saying he wasn't fair if he agreed to give the caddie part of his winning check (not part of his after-tax, post expenses, average profit) and then gave him a tiny percentage.

[Vinsk]

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

o you are saying that Kuchar needs to give up 62% of his weekly average pay to his caddie? That is what you are advocating if you want Kuchar to give this guy 50K.

You’re way off the point I’m making. I’m talking about this one incident which is a very unique one. A local caddy from another country and Kuchar wins. 50k is nothing to Kuchar. We wouldn’t be having this conversation if he paid the caddie 50,40 or even 30k. Kuchars wealth has everything to do with this. 50k is pure peanuts to Kuchar...period. Stop arguing that. Kuchar will win more than that at his next tournament. For f**** sake I’m not saying he OWES the caddy that money ... it would’ve been a great gesture and would have zero affect financially to Kuchar. 

[klineka]

8 minutes ago, chspeed said:

But I am saying he wasn't fair if he agreed to give the caddie part of his winning check (not part of his after-tax, post expenses, average profit) and then gave him a tiny percentage.

Kuchar gave the caddie more money than they both originally agreed to.

You can argue that the amount the agreed to from the beginning might not have been fair for the caddie (I disagree) but there is absolutely nothing unfair about Kuchar paying the caddie the agreed upon amount, plus a little extra.

[Vinsk]

5 minutes ago, klineka said:

but there is absolutely nothing unfair about Kuchar paying the caddie the agreed upon amount, plus a little extra.

Completely agree. 

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

50k is pure peanuts to Kuchar...period.

I am saying it is not.

How much money does Kuchar have in the bank right now? You have no clue. He could be the type of person who is living off of the winnings of tournament by tournament.

To him, 50K could be substantial. You are just claiming he has the resources because he happen to make that much over his career. That doesn't mean he has that much.

There are a lot of athletes that end up struggling the rest of their lives after they retire because they spent everything during their career.

You just see big numbers and say, "Oh he can afford that".

The guy got paid a substantial amount of money for 24 hours of work.

Fly me down to the next country Kuchar is going to play in. I'll take 3000 dollars to carry a bag.

[Yukari]

As far as I can tell, there was no actual number agreed for winning.  Just that there will be a "bonus".  Given the size of the winning, that bonus based on his winning comes off as MK being very cheap.  It's a huge PR nightmare.  I bet MK lost or will lose more than 50K in his endorsements going forward.

MK's attitude that $5K earning is a great week shows he is missing the point.  He comes off looking like Marie Antoinette.  That is just a callous and ignorant statement made by MK.  Basically he is justifying his action of being cheap.

Imagine what most people will say had someone like Tiger or Phil done this.  Of course from the stories I've read, Phil would never do something like that.  Although there are stories Tiger being cheap, but I don't know how accurate that is - this being the age of internet.

[DeadMan]

48 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

This type of logic is BS in my opinion. 

He's made 46 million over 15 seasons. Then you got to consider that he probably ends up losing a big chunk of it to taxes. Let's say he loses 40% of it to taxes. He's probably keeping 1.5 to 2.0 million a year in winnings.

By looking at the PGA Tour Top 10 Finishes, Kuchar plays in about 20-23 events a year. So, after taxes he makes about 80-85K a tournament. At 3K a caddie, he's giving up 3-5% of his average winnings to the Caddie.

If you tell someone they can have 3-5% profit sharing, that is a pretty decent number. I would like 3-5% profit sharing of Apple stock. ;)

Basically you are asking that he gives up 60-65% of his after tax winnings per tournament to the caddie!

Let's say he gives away 50K per tournament, that would be giving away 1.1 million dollars over the course of one season.

Guess what, if he gives out 50K then all he gets asked about is, "What about the next guy?"

Yea, this is a big misconception on what Kuchar is actually paying someone. People just see big total numbers and don't break it down. It gets a bit better for Kuchar if you consider the other expenses of playing on the PGA Tour that I did not account for. That 3-5% can easily jump to 6-10% if he's a bit luxurious in his accommodations while traveling to these 20-24 events.

Let's take into account that this guy is being paid 136 dollars an hour to carry a bag (assuming a 5.5 hour round)

This is poorly thought out. The tax situations of PGA Tour players are extremely complicated, and any percentage that taxes take out is a massive assumption. I don't even know how to begin to think of a number. Kuchar is going to be able to deduct a ton of stuff, including, what he pays his caddy.

The other problem is that you're ignoring sponsorship income. Kuchar has probably made more money with off course sponsorships than he has with on course winnings. He might get a bonus from his sponsors from winning.

A regular caddy, with a win, will get paid somewhere between 8-10% of the total winnings. That's not unprecedented at all. If his regular caddy had been on his bag, he would have had to pay that. Caddies don't get paid that much unless it's a win, either. I believe most get a flat salary and then a % of winnings that steps up based on the player's finish in an event. They don't get 10% per event.

The bottom line is that Kuchar has made enough money to easily be able to pay his caddy much more than the $5k he paid him. If he can't, I don't have any sympathy for him (I would be pretty shocked if he was living paycheck-to-paycheck, given that his career before golf was ... wait for it ... investment banker).

Whether he should have paid the caddy more than he did is a different question. But, come on, he's able to afford it.

[klineka]

10 minutes ago, Yukari said:

As far as I can tell, there was no actual number agreed for winning. 

The agreed upon amount for a top 10 was $4,000

[Yukari]

Just now, klineka said:

The agreed upon amount for a top 10 was $4,000

That was for top 10.  It is my understanding MK agreed to give a bonus for winning.  The amount of bonus for winning was not spelled out or not mentioned in any of the articles I've read.

[chspeed]

8 minutes ago, klineka said:

Kuchar gave the caddie more money than they both originally agreed to.

You can argue that the amount the agreed to from the beginning might not have been fair for the caddie (I disagree) but there is absolutely nothing unfair about Kuchar paying the caddie the agreed upon amount, plus a little extra.

 

From Golf.com:

"Kuchar said he told Ortiz he would pay him $1,000 if he missed the cut, $2,000 if he made the cut, $3,000 if he had a top-20 and $4,000 if he had a top-10. “The extra $1,000 was, ‘Thank you — it was a great week.’ Those were the terms. He was in agreement with those terms. That’s where I struggle. I don’t know what happened. Someone must have said, ‘You need much more.’”

Yes, IMO - $5,000 for winning a tournament is cheap, no matter what the agreement.

[klineka]

4 minutes ago, Yukari said:

That was for top 10.  It is my understanding MK agreed to give a bonus for winning.  The amount of bonus for winning was not spelled out or not mentioned in any of the articles I've read.

See below in bold. At the beginning of the week the caddie agreed and knew that he could make up to $4,000.

Quote

“I was very clear and very upfront on Tuesday [of the tournament week]. And he said, ‘OK.’ He had the ability, with bonuses, to make up to $4,000.”

Kuchar said he told Ortiz he would pay him $1,000 if he missed the cut, $2,000 if he made the cut, $3,000 if he had a top-20 and $4,000 if he had a top-10. “The extra $1,000 was, ‘Thank you — it was a great week.’ Those were the terms. He was in agreement with those terms. That’s where I struggle. I don’t know what happened. Someone must have said, `You need much more.’”

 

1 minute ago, chspeed said:

Yes, IMO - $5,000 for winning a tournament is cheap, no matter what the agreement.

There's a difference between thinking that the amount that Kuchar paid the caddie is cheap vs. stating that what Kuchar did was unfair:

39 minutes ago, chspeed said:

But I am saying he wasn't fair if he agreed to give the caddie part of his winning check (not part of his after-tax, post expenses, average profit) and then gave him a tiny percentage.

Again, there's nothing unfair about Kuchar paying the caddie more than the amount they both agreed to.

[Yukari]

12 minutes ago, klineka said:

See below in bold. At the beginning of the week the caddie agreed and knew that he could make up to $4,000.

 

There's a difference between thinking that the amount that Kuchar paid the caddie is cheap vs. stating that what Kuchar did was unfair:

Again, there's nothing unfair about Kuchar paying the caddie more than the amount they both agreed to.

That's where the story is unclear.  That's MK's version for his action.  You are quoting that as a fact to justify your position.

According to the caddie:

"Ortiz said that Kuchar said at the start of the tournament that he would be paid $3,000 for the week, plus an unspecified percentage of his winnings."

'They can keep their money': Kuchar's fill-in caddie breaks silence over pay dispute - Golf

---

David Ortiz, aka El Tucan, said the final payment offer from Kuchar’s camp was unacceptable. “I’m a little bit pissed, a little bit confused,” he said.

You have two different stories by two parties involved. 

IF the caddies version is anywhere near the truth or if the truth is somewhere in between, MK still comes off as cheap.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Yukari

[phillyk]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

But the amount Kuchar, or anyone really has made over their career should be inconsequential. 

This. 

I can't believe how blown up this whole thing is.  My first thought when I saw this thread a while back was "who cares?" Honestly is none of my business how much one makes or doesn't make, doesn't matter if he won or MC'd.  They had a contract, Kuchar fulfilled it's terms.  The caddy just wants more than what he signed on for, which makes sense, but it should not make Kuchar look bad at all. 

[Vinsk]

55 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

How much money does Kuchar have in the bank right now? You have no clue. He could be the type of person who is living off of the winnings of tournament by tournament.

You know that’s very unlikely. His net worth in 2015 was $25 million. It’s not an unknown mystery as to what famous people’s worth is. Sure it may be off some...but come on...you’re being a little silly with that comment. 50k is peanuts to Kuchar and I’m done discussing that point. He owes the guy nothing more and he didn’t deserve the bad press he got. A little ribbing maybe, but that’s all. The caddy was a dope to decline $15k imo.