Hinge and Hold versus Bounce?

I've seen umpteen posts, here and elsewhere, contrasting Phil's espoused technique, and UTB.

This video is interesting for a few different reasons. Take from it what you will, but I'd be interested to hear comments.

It all depends on setup Phil says he is using 10, but opening the club fully raises the effective bounce. He must drive the club forward and not let it pass his hands because his leading edge will blade the ball. Others can set up square with the shaft vertical or behind the clubhead with more bounce but a lowered leading edge and have the club head pass the hands without blading

I personally use Phil's method for all but a few various chips that I like to hit depending on the situation. It seems to work for me just because distance control is more consistent when I do that. It also probably helps that Ping's default wedge specs (I have the Tour-S Rustique ones) are nearly identical to Phil's wedges.

However, I do generally take flatter swings than he does around the greens out of habit and because it feels comfortable to me.

I remember Seve in his pomp as most Europeans would of middle age and older. I've watched some stuff he made on the short game and he talked about breaking the wrist back on chips. Phil does it and of course a method usually gets a moniker in this case H&H.; For me Seve&Phil; are the most creative short game players I have ever seen and they both use a break in the wrists. I was your typical high handicapper who would flub chips,blade them etc.. Since putting a natural wrist break in going back it transformed my feel for short shots. To me apart from putting everything feels like a swing. The weight of the club in your hands dictates a natural flow of movement that you can take advantage of. I personally don't change my grip on chips now either its the same grip as my full swing. The continuity breeds confidence. I almost become a bit nonchalant now when I approach a chip or a small pitch. To me all shots have this commonality that a backward hinge of the right wrist on the backswing exponentionally increases my chances of hitting a very good shot. On the full swing it happens more naturally because the club hinges naturally because of its weight at the top,but a shorter shot requires you to manually put it in because of backswing length. So personally I find Mickelson's short game techniques have been a revelation in my own progress

In the video, Phil states, "This is a low percentage shot" and that sums it up for me. With that swing speed, he could hit a shot 85 yards. It may be a cool trick shot to learn, but I wouldn't hit it during a round (at least not that extreme of a flop). Remember the 15th hole at the Masters? That took guts and a ton of practice.

I know you have your definitions of chip and pitch shots. Do you see "hinge and hold" as synonymous with a leading edge contact?

Phil says he's hinging and holding in the first shot he hits from the fringe. I know feel is not real, but that looks to be a FLW at impact.

I agree these things shade into one another. I think Mr Desmond makes a good point above about what tends, or needs, to happen once the clubface is wide open.

I do, because your hinging your wrist, and you are trying to maintain as much of that hinge as possible into the shot. Take your wedge and lean it forward by the handle, that is what your doing when you hinge, you can see your rolling the club along its bounce to the leading edge is pointing more towards the ground.

OK. Now I think I understand better where some people are coming from with their comments.

I think a lot depends on whether you understand "hold" to mean (1) "never let the wrists release"; (2) "minimise the amount of release";  or (3) only "don't let the clubhead pass the hands before impact".

I don't want to get into close textual analysis of Phil's book - but I think (3) makes more sense overall in the context of what Phil discusses.

I have Phil's book, where he describes a technique most similar to option 3 that Birlyshirly presented.

Pitch shots he still says he wants the hands to lead, but not necessarily by a huge amount. Not sure how that would work out with using the bounce, could anyone confirm/deny that a small shaft lean will still allow the bounce to come into play?

Yeah, isn't the holding more of a float loading and lagging the club into the ball? I like the hinge and load on chips, but it's more dynamic than "hinge and hold" makes it sound. I don't want the hands to be rigid.

yep, when i get into trouble pitching, i try to get the club to slide under the ball, especially for tight lie shots, and bunker shots. I keep the hands moving, but i want the wrist hinge to gradually decrease through the ball. Its really a fluid motion for me. I almost say its like putting for me, its all tempo

Agree with everything, except possibly the last 7 words. Not saying you're wrong - I just think that's a subjective interpretation of "hold". Surely some people are going to have to feel like they're holding on for dear life just to stop the club from passing the hands before impact.

When you're pitching, or teaching pitching, do you have a preference (like, I believe, Utley) for adjusting ball position, weight and hand position before getting into opening the clubface?

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Again - I'd say that's a subjective view of what Phil "implies". The video at the top of the thread show a super-high lob (of flop or whatever it is) but he still has a pretty damned flat left wrist at impact. Completely agree though that he's playing the ball forward, with minimal shaft lean, and benefitting from the bounce. Agree too that the shaft is passing his hands at a fair old rate as he comes through the ball.

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I agree very much if you're comparing pitch shots to a chip shot using a delofted wedge. But personally, not so much, compared to chip shots with less lofted clubs hit with less shaft lean.

OK. I don't really want to argue the meaning of "hold". All I'm saying is that there's more to it than what can be read into a 3 word label. A bit like "stack and tilt" in that respect! My understanding of "hinge and hold" as used in the gospel of Phil is that the hold comes more from the acceleration of the arms than from a deliberate holding back of the release. So, maybe it's a dumb label...

Genuinely curious though - do you never teach pitching to chronic flippers who need less shaft lean at impact?