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Questions on Fairways Hit and GIR

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
I have a couple questions regarding "hit fairway" and one for GIR. The closest thing to an official definition of a "hit fairway", at least that I can find, comes from pgatour.com, which says: "a tee shot comes to rest in the fairway". Unfortunately, "fairway" itself doesn't have much of an official definition, aside from the generic "closely mown area".

Here are a few scenarios I've encountered where I wasn't sure how to count for my stats, and Google hasn't revealed anything useful:

1) A tee shot on a par 4 lands on the cart path. The cart path clearly separates closely-mown fairway from the second cut/rough. The free drop is on the fairway. Does it count as a hit fairway?
- If you got a free drop because a tee shot came to rest in the rough near an obstruction that you got relief from, and you happened to drop in the fairway, it doesn't seem like you would count it as a fairway hit. But what does the cart path count as? It's clearly not a "closely mown" area, but the ball is on it, not just near it, so you have no bearings on where the fairway should be. Obstructions are kind of like unfortunate "no man's land" that don't count as a part of the course.

2) A short par 4 is protected on the front by a water hazard. The line of play is dead straight from the tee box to the green, however the closely mown fairway stops several yards short of the water hazard, leaving an un-kept buffer zone of land between the closely mown fairway and the margins of the water hazard. If the tee shot drives past the closely-mown fairway and lands in this area, is it a hit fairway?
- It seems unfair to count it as a missed fairway, but technically it didn't land in what is clearly "closely mown".

3) Similarly, if a tee shot is duffed and flies straight for the fairway, but doesn't go far enough to get to the closely mown part of the fairway, is it a hit fairway?
- It seems unfair to count it as a hit fairway and it didn't hit the "closely mown" area, but if the previous one is counted it seems like this one should be too. Same principle, but too short instead of too long.

4) Is GIR measured in strokes by the player's score or by actual physical hits of the ball? Eg, if a tee shot on a par 4 goes in the water and after the drop the next physical stroke (second physical stroke, but third stroke score-wise) hits the green, is it a GIR?
- I'm pretty sure that it's based on total score not physical strokes, but I want to verify this.

5) A tee shot comes to rest near what appears to be the visual edge of the fairway. Standing over the ball, you observe the fairway and rough: 10 feet to one side is clearly fairway and 10 feet to the other side is clearly rough, but you have no idea which area the ball is actually sitting in. The fairway line is a bit of a gray area and kind of jagged, so you can't know for sure if it's fairway or rough. How should you count this?
- I've resorted to breaking the tie, when I have no other data to go on, by using the quality of my tee shot. If it was a good shot that went relatively close to where I wanted it to, I count it as a hit fairway. If it was a bad shot or didn't go where I'd aimed, I count it as a missed fairway. The purpose of the statistic, after all, is to measure the quality of tee shots. Any better suggestions?

Obviously, none of these questions impact the final score, but I like to keep stats and I want them to be on par with the correct way to keep them.
post #2 of 31

IMO

 

1) missed fairway; the ball came to rest outside of the fairway.

2) missed fairway; good drive right down the center but it came to rest in grass cut rough lenght so it missed; it's not uncommon to have fairways similarly divided and the deciding factor is the lenght of grass your ball came to rest in.

3) missed fairway; what's bad is when you top one off the tee but it manages to make it to the fairway, you count that as a fairway hit even though it only traveled the minimal distance possible to make it to the fairway.

4) score; also a green hit in under regulation still is considered hit in regulation (e.g. a par 5 hit in 2 strokes).

5) this happens all the time especially at courses where maintinence isn't the best; in this case I judge where the fairway is supposed to be.  Many times I've wound up in short grass, but far outside the intended boundry of the fairway (can easily happen in dorment conditions) I'll consider that a missed fairway.

post #3 of 31

I think that you are trying to complicate it too much.

 

Here's my take.  A fairway hit is when your ball ends up in the fairway of the hole you are playing.  Even though there is no official definition of fairway in the rules, we all know what is mean by it.  If a course is so poorly maintained that you can't tell the fairway from the rough, then I really wouldn't worry about.  That course sucks. doh.gif

 

A GIR is a when your ball ends up on the green in the regulation number of shots to leave you 2 putts for no worse than par.

post #4 of 31

Are you more worried about the stats for personal use or the technical definition by which pro stats are tracked?

 

I track my FIR and GIR with my GPS.  If I hit the fairway of the hole I'm playing I count it.  If I'm in the first cut or all the way over to another fairway I count the miss as a right or left miss.  If I hit a bunker right smack dab in the middle of the fairway I mark it as a missed fairway.  If I hit too far through a fairway as in your scenario #2 I call it a missed fairway.

 

The importance for the amateur in tracking these stats is consistent application so you know if you are progressing or not.

 

There is one hole on my home course that is a hard dogleg left.  I usually hit through the fairway into the adjoining fairway b/c I like the angle into the green better.  When that happens I count it as a fairway hit b/c I hit it where I intended.  Again, consistent application wink.png

post #5 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View PostIf a course is so poorly maintained that you can't tell the fairway from the rough, then I really wouldn't worry about.  That course sucks. doh.gif

 

 

hahaha I think we've all touched down on a course or 2 like this
 

 

post #6 of 31

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Broom View Post

 

3) missed fairway; what's bad is when you top one off the tee but it manages to make it to the fairway, you count that as a fairway hit even though it only traveled the minimal distance possible to make it to the fairway.


Personally I'd only count that as a FW hit if I still have a chance of hitting the green. If the hole is a 380yd par 4, for example, and I top it 130 yds out, I'm not going to hit a 250 yard shot off the deck even if it is in the FW.  So since this stat is supposed to track the quality of your tee shots, and the tee shot was so bad you can't reach the green in regulation, I wouldn't count it as a hit FW. Maybe that's not the technical definition, but I think it's more accurate to do it this way.

post #7 of 31

I could be wrong, but I tried to base these more off logic than opinions: 

 

1) Misses fairway. It didn't come to rest on the fairway, plain and simple.

2), 3) Both also misses. There is something to be said for having accuracy distance-wise as well as left and right. #3 is more clear-cut because it was a poor shot, but I still would say #2 is a misses fairway also. Where that gets hairy is missed-left and missed-right stats...

4) It's score-wise, not actual strokes-wise. I know that isn't exactly clear, but I think you and everyone know what I mean.

5) If the fairway/rough dividing line is straight (as in not curved) I would step back and try to line up where the ball is. If that doesn't work, quality of shot seems like a good way to do it. I would guess that there is no official distinction for this, because the PGA Tour would never play on a course where that would be a problem, but I definitely feel you pain. smile.png

post #8 of 31

Yes, I don't think there's any doubt about #2. You went through the fairway, either because you mis-hit it (swung too hard, didn't fade/draw it as much as you were going for, etc.) or you used the wrong club (course management is part of hitting FWs too). Either way, you're not in the short grass, so no soup for you.

post #9 of 31

This is not difficult.

 

Did your ball come to rest on the fairway? Yes; fairway hit. No; fairway missed.

Did your ball come to rest on the green? Yes; green hit. No; green missed.

 

Cart path, rough, semi-rough is not fairway. Fringe is not green. GIR is one shot onto the green at a par 3, two at a par 4, three at a par 5. If you suffered penalty shots, you don't get GIR.

Doesn't matter if you topped it, chunked it or whatever, if the ball stops on the fairway or green, you hit it. These stats doesn't tell the entire truth about the quality of the shot you hit. On a 20 yard deep green you can hit it 20 yards short and still put down a GIR. The fairway is usually huge, landing the ball on such a big surface does not equal a good shot.

 

If you can't tell the fairway from the rough, you'll just have to make a judgement yourself.

post #10 of 31

1-3:  Missed it.  If you're struggling to figure this out, focus on your next shot.  Is it from the fairway?  If not, you didn't hit it.

4:  Score.

5:  Flip a coin?  Seriously, ask a partner to make the decision if you can't.

post #11 of 31

I also track Fairway Hit and admit sometimes it is difficult to tell if you're on the fairway or not. However golf shots are defined by where the ball ends up and not how it got there (e.g. no style points in golf).   Normally and in almost all cases however the fairway boundaries  are obvious and so making an occasional mistake isn't a big deal.  Also for most golfers Fairways hit is probably the least important of all your stats.  Most of us lose strokes around the greens and not off the tee.  So I'd pay more attention to GIR percentage, percent of one putts for missed greens, distance of the first putt, and number of putts/round.  I also track penalty strokes which can be a score killer because they can add more strokes than just the penalty.  Last but by no means least, remember to have fun.

post #12 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks, guys. The answers were exactly what I expected.

1-3 = No fairway hit (and regardless of the answer, 2 & 3 have to be the same answer).
4 = No GIR. (Seemed obvious and that's how I always played it, but I just wanted to confirm as long as I was asking the other questions.)
5 = Best Judgement. (I'll stick with quality of the tee shot.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post

This is not difficult.

 

Did your ball come to rest on the fairway? Yes; fairway hit. No; fairway missed.


But it is more complicated than that, though, because of flat immovable obstructions. What if the cart path makes a perpendicular cross through the fairway and your tee shot lands on it? If the cart path is surrounded by fairway and your drop is still on the fairway it seems like it is clearly a fairway hit. Similarly if the cart path were parallel to the fairway and both sides of the path were clearly contained within the fairway, if you landed on the path it would still be obviously a fairway hit. If you landed on a sprinkler head in the middle of the fairway, you'd count that as a hit fairway, the same logic applies to the cart path. (Obviously designers avoid putting the cart path in areas a drive is likely to land, but the scenario can still happen.) Same goes if the cart path is surrounded by rough. Following the logic of immovable obstructions being considered fairway/rough depending on what they were surrounded by, I wasn't sure how to count the cart path (or any immovable obstruction) when it wasn't surrounded by fairway or rough.

But it seems that it's best not counted as a fairway hit, though.
post #13 of 31



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post

 

Doesn't matter if you topped it, chunked it or whatever, if the ball stops on the fairway or green, you hit it. These stats doesn't tell the entire truth about the quality of the shot you hit. On a 20 yard deep green you can hit it 20 yards short and still put down a GIR. The fairway is usually huge, landing the ball on such a big surface does not equal a good shot.



 

 

True..true and even with those huge greens and fariways us amatuers still suck at these stats...when I look at the PGA Tour stats and even Champions Tour stats in reference to FIR and GIR they are amazing...I am a 7.7 handicap and my avg stats are FIR = 44% and GIR = 35%...horrible bigcry.gif

post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by B-Con View Post

But it is more complicated than that, though, because of flat immovable obstructions.


How often do you come by this situation? Cart path on the sides of the fairway is not fairway for me, if it goes directly accross, I might give it a fairway hit, but I think that's only happened once.

 

To me, GIR and fairways is an indication of how good my ballstriking is. If I aim to land the ball on a narrow fairway and it lands on a carth path to the side, the shot was obviously not good enough, regardless of the placement of the path. If I drive it down the middle and it lands on a crossing cart path, the shot was good and it would be a fairway hit. Exceptions like that are so few that it won't make any big impact on the statistic anyways.

post #15 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph View Post

Cart path on the sides of the fairway is not fairway for me, [...] If I aim to land the ball on a narrow fairway and it lands on a carth path to the side, the shot was obviously not good enough, regardless of the placement of the path. If I drive it down the middle and it lands on a crossing cart path, the shot was good and it would be a fairway hit. Exceptions like that are so few that it won't make any big impact on the statistic anyways.

I was pointing out that the blanket rule you stated "it's a fairway hit only if it lands on the fairway" doesn't account for some necessary exceptions where you would count a fairway as hit even if the ball wasn't sitting on the actual fairway grass. In my OP I had an exception that was similar to those exceptions and wondered, based on how some those exceptions are counted, how the one I was mentioning should be treated. I agree that if the cart path when it divides the the fairway from the rough then it makes sense to not count it as a hit fairway, but for reasons that are beside the general rule you stated. I know they are not common scenarios, but that has nothing to do with how they should be treated.
post #16 of 31

Fairways in regulation for amateurs is very overrated. Who cares if you're in the fairway if you're > 225 yards away? You still have <10% chance of hitting the ball to 2-stroke distance (on the green or just off it). I tracked my driving distance and FIR, GIR, and PPGIR for a few rounds last year. It was depressing. Unless the rough is very penal, any tee shot where there's a good chance to reach the green in 2, is a good shot. Even GIR is overrated. I've had rounds with low GIR numbers, but my misses were in the right spots. I shot lower scores than other rounds with better GIR numbers where I hit the fat of the green and made more 3-putts.

 

Now I just track "penalty strokes" and "3-putts". The closer those two numbers are to zero, the better. I know that's not the point of this thread, but seriously, why overthink things?!?

post #17 of 31



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_miller View Post

Fairways in regulation for amateurs is very overrated. Who cares if you're in the fairway if you're > 225 yards away? You still have <10% chance of hitting the ball to 2-stroke distance (on the green or just off it). I tracked my driving distance and FIR, GIR, and PPGIR for a few rounds last year. It was depressing. Unless the rough is very penal, any tee shot where there's a good chance to reach the green in 2, is a good shot. Even GIR is overrated. I've had rounds with low GIR numbers, but my misses were in the right spots. I shot lower scores than other rounds with better GIR numbers where I hit the fat of the green and made more 3-putts.

 

Now I just track "penalty strokes" and "3-putts". The closer those two numbers are to zero, the better. I know that's not the point of this thread, but seriously, why overthink things?!?

Interesting and true to a certain extent...have you ever read "How to break 80"  it talks about that the two most important stats are GIR and Putts per round...the following are a few parts from the discussion:

 

Here's a quick way to remember the effect of GIRs on your score: "Three greens break 90, eight greens break 80, and 13 greens break 70." That prediction is fairly accurate for any single round, and within one stroke about 90 percent of the time when you take the average of four or more rounds.

 

The second piece of the scroing puzzle is putting. When it comes to breaking 80, putting is less important than GIRs but much more important than everything else. After all, more than a third of all strokes are putts. Although the "eight greens break 80" rule is a good predictor, it is possible to break 80 with fewer than eight GIRs, and possible to not break 80 with more than eight. The difference in these cases usually (but not always) is putting.

 

I went back and tracked my rounds under 80 for the previous year and sure enough each time I met either of these requirements...and my two rounds so far this year under 80 were as follows:

 

GIR = 7

Putts = 30

 

GIR = 7

Putts = 28

 

So each time I met one of these requirements (close on the GIR)...I think it is just the way the math works out but by keeping up with your GIR and putting stats you may find the areas you need to work on and focus to improve??? 

 

Just my 2 cents...whistling.gif

 

 PS  Tracking penalty strokes is a good indicator also...especially for off the tee

post #18 of 31

7. My tee ball of #8 lands in the #2 fairway. Is that a fairway hit? :)

 

It's common sense. The architect put a fairway out in front of you. Your tee ball either ends up in it or it doesn't. So the answers to #1-3 are no, #4 is par minus 2, #5 is enough already!

 

Is any money riding on this? Because a fairway hit doesn't matter if you make bogey, and a fairway missed doesn't matter if you make par. Same for GIR. 

 

GIR is a trash stat anyway. It just measures how often your next shot after your approach is a putt, not how close you got with that approach. But that's another thread.

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