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Hinge and Hold versus Bounce?  

post #1 of 73
Thread Starter 

I've seen umpteen posts, here and elsewhere, contrasting Phil's espoused technique, and UTB.

 

This video is interesting for a few different reasons. Take from it what you will, but I'd be interested to hear comments.

 

 

post #2 of 73
It all depends on setup

Phil says he is using 10, but opening the club fully raises the effective bounce. He must drive the club forward and not let it pass his hands because his leading edge will blade the ball.

Others can set up square with the shaft vertical or behind the clubhead with more bounce but a lowered leading edge and have the club head pass the hands without blading
post #3 of 73

I personally use Phil's method for all but a few various chips that I like to hit depending on the situation. It seems to work for me just because distance control is more consistent when I do that. It also probably helps that Ping's default wedge specs (I have the Tour-S Rustique ones) are nearly identical to Phil's wedges.

However, I do generally take flatter swings than he does around the greens out of habit and because it feels comfortable to me.

post #4 of 73
I remember Seve in his pomp as most Europeans would of middle age and older.
I've watched some stuff he made on the short game and he talked about breaking the wrist back on chips.
Phil does it and of course a method usually gets a moniker in this case H&H.
For me Seve&Phil are the most creative short game players I have ever seen and they both use a break in the wrists.
I was your typical high handicapper who would flub chips,blade them etc.. Since putting a natural wrist break in going back it transformed my feel for short shots. To me apart from putting everything feels like a swing. The weight of the club in your hands dictates a natural flow of movement that you can take advantage of.
I personally don't change my grip on chips now either its the same grip as my full swing. The continuity breeds confidence.
I almost become a bit nonchalant now when I approach a chip or a small pitch.
To me all shots have this commonality that a backward hinge of the right wrist on the backswing exponentionally increases my chances of hitting a very good shot. On the full swing it happens more naturally because the club hinges naturally because of its weight at the top,but a shorter shot requires you to manually put it in because of backswing length.
So personally I find Mickelson's short game techniques have been a revelation in my own progress
post #5 of 73
Phil only hinges and holds when he chips (using my definition). I teach the same. Bounce is for pitches.

Chip - shots that engage the leading edge.
Pitches - shots that engage the bounce.

I pitch 9x as often as I chip. Maybe more.

Everything is on a gradient. Something might be 80% pitch with a little chipping thrown in. Chipping is for lower shots.
post #6 of 73

In the video, Phil states, "This is a low percentage shot" and that sums it up for me. With that swing speed, he could hit a shot 85 yards. It may be a cool trick shot to learn, but I wouldn't hit it during a round (at least not that extreme of a flop). Remember the 15th hole at the Masters? That took guts and a ton of practice. 

post #7 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Phil only hinges and holds when he chips (using my definition). I teach the same. Bounce is for pitches.

Chip - shots that engage the leading edge.
Pitches - shots that engage the bounce.

I pitch 9x as often as I chip. Maybe more.

Everything is on a gradient. Something might be 80% pitch with a little chipping thrown in. Chipping is for lower shots.

I know you have your definitions of chip and pitch shots. Do you see "hinge and hold" as synonymous with a leading edge contact?

 

Phil says he's hinging and holding in the first shot he hits from the fringe. I know feel is not real, but that looks to be a FLW at impact.

 

I agree these things shade into one another. I think Mr Desmond makes a good point above about what tends, or needs, to happen once the clubface is wide open.

post #8 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

I know you have your definitions of chip and pitch shots. Do you see "hinge and hold" as synonymous with a leading edge contact?

 

Phil says he's hinging and holding in the first shot he hits from the fringe. I know feel is not real, but that looks to be a FLW at impact.

 

I agree these things shade into one another. I think Mr Desmond makes a good point above about what tends, or needs, to happen once the clubface is wide open.

 

I do, because your hinging your wrist, and you are trying to maintain as much of that hinge as possible into the shot. Take your wedge and lean it forward by the handle, that is what your doing when you hinge, you can see your rolling the club along its bounce to the leading edge is pointing more towards the ground.

post #9 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

 

I do, because your hinging your wrist, and you are trying to maintain as much of that hinge as possible into the shot. Take your wedge and lean it forward by the handle, that is what your doing when you hinge, you can see your rolling the club along its bounce to the leading edge is pointing more towards the ground.

OK. Now I think I understand better where some people are coming from with their comments.

 

I think a lot depends on whether you understand "hold" to mean (1) "never let the wrists release"; (2) "minimise the amount of release";  or (3) only "don't let the clubhead pass the hands before impact".

 

I don't want to get into close textual analysis of Phil's book - but I think (3) makes more sense overall in the context of what Phil discusses.

post #10 of 73

Phil also described it as keeping your hands moving to the target, which then creates 3.  Dave Stockton talks about the same thing with the back of the left hand and a chip being a left hand controlled shot.   

post #11 of 73

I have Phil's book, where he describes a technique most similar to option 3 that Birlyshirly presented.

Pitch shots he still says he wants the hands to lead, but not necessarily by a huge amount. Not sure how that would work out with using the bounce, could anyone confirm/deny that a small shaft lean will still allow the bounce to come into play?

post #12 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

(3) only "don't let the clubhead pass the hands before impact".

I don't want to get into close textual analysis of Phil's book - but I think (3) makes more sense overall in the context of what Phil discusses.

The problem with feel things like this is that I could say exactly the same thing about my pitching technique - if you watch high speed video all but the super highest pitches have the hands leading the club head at impact. It just quickly passes after that, and it's anything but "hinge and hold."

Also, Phil doesn't "hold" anywhere near as much as he implies on most of his shots.

At the end it boils down to forgiveness. Pitches give you a wider margin of error.
post #13 of 73
Yeah, isn't the holding more of a float loading and lagging the club into the ball? I like the hinge and load on chips, but it's more dynamic than "hinge and hold" makes it sound. I don't want the hands to be rigid.
post #14 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


The problem with feel things like this is that I could say exactly the same thing about my pitching technique - if you watch high speed video all but the super highest pitches have the hands leading the club head at impact. It just quickly passes after that, and it's anything but "hinge and hold."

Also, Phil doesn't "hold" anywhere near as much as he implies on most of his shots.

At the end it boils down to forgiveness. Pitches give you a wider margin of error.

 

yep, when i get into trouble pitching, i try to get the club to slide under the ball, especially for tight lie shots, and bunker shots. I keep the hands moving, but i want the wrist hinge to gradually decrease through the ball. Its really a fluid motion for me. I almost say its like putting for me, its all tempo

post #15 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


The problem with feel things like this is that I could say exactly the same thing about my pitching technique - if you watch high speed video all but the super highest pitches have the hands leading the club head at impact. It just quickly passes after that, and it's anything but "hinge and hold."
 

Agree with everything, except possibly the last 7 words. Not saying you're wrong - I just think that's a subjective interpretation of "hold". Surely some people are going to have to feel like they're holding on for dear life just to stop the club from passing the hands before impact.

 

When you're pitching, or teaching pitching, do you have a preference (like, I believe, Utley) for adjusting ball position, weight and hand position before getting into opening the clubface?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Also, Phil doesn't "hold" anywhere near as much as he implies on most of his shots.
 

 

 Again - I'd say that's a subjective view of what Phil "implies". The video at the top of the thread show a super-high lob (of flop or whatever it is) but he still has a pretty damned flat left wrist at impact. Completely agree though that he's playing the ball forward, with minimal shaft lean, and benefitting from the bounce. Agree too that the shaft is passing his hands at a fair old rate as he comes through the ball.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

At the end it boils down to forgiveness. Pitches give you a wider margin of error.

 I agree very much if you're comparing pitch shots to a chip shot using a delofted wedge. But personally, not so much, compared to chip shots with less lofted clubs hit with less shaft lean.

post #16 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

Agree with everything, except possibly the last 7 words. Not saying you're wrong - I just think that's a subjective interpretation of "hold". Surely some people are going to have to feel like they're holding on for dear life just to stop the club from passing the hands before impact.

 

Then we'll have to disagree there, as there's literally nothing in my pitching technique that meets any reasonable definition of "hold." Nobody I've taught has expressed any sort of "hold-like" feeling at all. Heck, I demonstrate in most of my pitching demonstrations actually letting go of the club during and just after impact, I employ so little "hold" of any kind.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

When you're pitching, or teaching pitching, do you have a preference (like, I believe, Utley) for adjusting ball position, weight and hand position before getting into opening the clubface?

 

That seems to presume I hit a lot of shots with an open clubface, which I don't. Very few shots are hit with an open clubface. It's one of the things that makes the pitching technique I teach so good - you know where the ball will go. When you're opening the clubface, the ball will go somewhere between the path and the face, but who knows exactly where (and technically exactly where depends on the quality of the lie, the speed of the swing, the AoA and loft, the cleanliness of the grooves, the type of ball, etc. - i.e. it varies).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Also, Phil doesn't "hold" anywhere near as much as he implies on most of his shots.

 

 Again - I'd say that's a subjective view of what Phil "implies". The video at the top of the thread show a super-high lob (of flop or whatever it is) but he still has a pretty damned flat left wrist at impact. Completely agree though that he's playing the ball forward, with minimal shaft lean, and benefitting from the bounce. Agree too that the shaft is passing his hands at a fair old rate as he comes through the ball.

 

I disagree, and think that I'm using an awfully simple, common, basic, well understood definition for "hold." Nothing in most of Phil's shots is "held."

 

Your second sentence seems to indicate that you either haven't read or don't remember reading what I wrote above about shaft lean. My wrist is often quite flat at impact when I pitch too. But I still haven't "held" anything (nor has Phil). Then your next sentences indicate that you did.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

At the end it boils down to forgiveness. Pitches give you a wider margin of error.

I agree very much if you're comparing pitch shots to a chip shot using a delofted wedge. But personally, not so much, compared to chip shots with less lofted clubs hit with less shaft lean.

 

Those are chip shots, so, not the same thing at all:

 

Hinge and hold = chipping technique.

Using the Bounce = pitching technique.

post #17 of 73
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

Then we'll have to disagree there, as there's literally nothing in my pitching technique that meets any reasonable definition of "hold." Nobody I've taught has expressed any sort of "hold-like" feeling at all. Heck, I demonstrate in most of my pitching demonstrations actually letting go of the club during and just after impact, I employ so little "hold" of any kind.

 

OK. I don't really want to argue the meaning of "hold". All I'm saying is that there's more to it than what can be read into a 3 word label. A bit like "stack and tilt" in that respect! My understanding of "hinge and hold" as used in the gospel of Phil is that the hold comes more from the acceleration of the arms than from a deliberate holding back of the release. So, maybe it's a dumb label...

 

Genuinely curious though - do you never teach pitching to chronic flippers who need less shaft lean at impact? 


Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

That seems to presume I hit a lot of shots with an open clubface, which I don't. Very few shots are hit with an open clubface. It's one of the things that makes the pitching technique I teach so good - you know where the ball will go. When you're opening the clubface, the ball will go somewhere between the path and the face, but who knows exactly where (and technically exactly where depends on the quality of the lie, the speed of the swing, the AoA and loft, the cleanliness of the grooves, the type of ball, etc. - i.e. it varies).

 

I made no such presumption. Quite the reverse.  I used "before" meaning "in preference to", not "and then". But thanks for your answer - which was more or less what I expected you to say. I don't mean that in a "I knew you'd say that" sort of way. I just think it makes overall sense that if you don't like opening up the clubface, then you're almost bound to stress a freer release of the wrists.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

I disagree, and think that I'm using an awfully simple, common, basic, well understood definition for "hold." Nothing in most of Phil's shots is "held."

 

Your second sentence seems to indicate that you either haven't read or don't remember reading what I wrote above about shaft lean. My wrist is often quite flat at impact when I pitch too. But I still haven't "held" anything (nor has Phil). Then your next sentences indicate that you did.

 

Well - to be scrupulously fair - you want to apply a common usage definition - and I'm simply pointing out how "hold" is defined in Phil's book.  I got your point about shaft lean fine. Phil would say that you're "holding"! So you dislike that use of the term. I've got no strong feelings. In the context of that method - it just is what it is - shaft up the left arm. What that alignment feels like is subjective.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

 

 

Those are chip shots, so, not the same thing at all:

 

Hinge and hold = chipping technique.

Using the Bounce = pitching technique.

Of course. I took you to be comparing pitches and chips in your earlier post. You said "Pitches give you a wider margin for error". Than what? I presumed you meant chipping. I like pitching using the bounce. But I don't find a 30 yard pitch the easy shot to play if I can land a 7 iron on the green and run it up. But there's chipping, and then there's chipping. I'm not such a fan of trying to run the ball with a wedge - so there, I think you and I are in agreement.

 

But when you say "Hinge and hold = chipping" - you're doing basically the same thing that you seem to be complaining about in Phil. You're defining "hinge and hold" in a way that makes sense to you. Now I understand what you mean by "hinge and hold" and I understand what Phil means when he says "hinge and hold". But I maintain that  your usage is different from Phil's. You're going to argue that your sense is common sense. I'd argue that, for many people (perhaps even most) "hinge and hold" now means what Phil says it means in his books, articles and videos. Even if that flies in the face of common parlance.

 

Geez - I realise that I'm sounding like a fully-bought-up advocate of Phil's method here. That's not the case at all. I'm just interested in exploring what really distinguishes his method from your preferred method - which I happen to like and use.

post #18 of 73
If Phil wants to try to redefine "hold" to mean a transient alignment of the shaft up the lead arm, then I think he's doing a disservice. That's not how people will take it, nor is it how I've seen him describe it in various videos.

Nor would it warrant a thread with this title, since as I said the pitching technique I teach often has an inline condition at impact. So there is really no "versus" to be had.

And yes, I've taught pitching to chronic flippers. They do as well as anyone else.
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