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Science of the Short Game, Effects of Grooves and Milling on Wedges

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 

For those that don't know him, John Graham is a golf instructor that mostly specializes in the short game, even more specifically in AimPoint green reading. He's a smart guy that enjoys asking questions and finding answers. @iacas even worked on a little project with him.

 

Grant has won on the PGA Tour and now teaches, tour players and amateurs.

 

Anyway, this was just posted on The Facebook

 

 

 

post #2 of 52
Thanks for sharing. I was under the impression that milling did affect spin, but I'm glad to know the truth.

I buy my wedges more based on bounce and grind options, anyway.
post #3 of 52
I guess it goes to support the evidence that rusted wedges don't spin more either.
post #4 of 52
Interesting. I know Andrew Rice did a piece a few years ago that said face milling added a huge amount of spin, though I was always a bit skeptical of that, if only for the reason Graham mentioned (they would market the hell out of it).
post #5 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post

Interesting. I know Andrew Rice did a piece a few years ago that said face milling added a huge amount of spin, though I was always a bit skeptical of that, if only for the reason Graham mentioned (they would market the hell out of it).
I read that one, too. It does make sense that the milling doesn't matter, or everyone would sell milled wedges.
post #6 of 52

Hmmm, maybe I'll just get a SM4 for less $$$$ than an SM5...:-D

post #7 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post

Interesting. I know Andrew Rice did a piece a few years ago that said face milling added a huge amount of spin, though I was always a bit skeptical of that, if only for the reason Graham mentioned (they would market the hell out of it).

 

It probably does increase it marginally, but in terms of making solid contact with the ball, not even close enough to make it a huge marketing advantage. Basically if the companies are not putting big bucks to promote it, then it's minimal. 

 

As for the science, I can see it helping create a more uniform area to make contact, but its still such a small area of contact, and the grooves decrease surface area as well to allow for debris to be collected so the ball can contact the face more cleanly. I would like to see the numbers of groove + milled versus just milled. 

post #8 of 52
Something Andrew Rice said was wrong?-Color me surprised. NOT.---Looks like his burgeoning wedge empire is taking some big hits lately.-First wrong about spin loft 45 now this.
post #9 of 52

This is interesting but conflicts with the practices of pro's.  I was under the impression that pro's switched out their wedges for new ones quite often, sometimes after each tournament.  If grooves and milling have minimal impact on spin then why do they switch them out so often beyond the fact that they are pro's and likely get free wedges.  

post #10 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

This is interesting but conflicts with the practices of pro's.  I was under the impression that pro's switched out their wedges for new ones quite often, sometimes after each tournament.  If grooves and milling have minimal impact on spin then why do they switch them out so often beyond the fact that they are pro's and likely get free wedges.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this testing was one a clean fairway lie. Regular grooves are presumably still necessary out of the rough and sand to channel away water and grass.
post #11 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

This is interesting but conflicts with the practices of pro's.  I was under the impression that pro's switched out their wedges for new ones quite often, sometimes after each tournament.  If grooves and milling have minimal impact on spin then why do they switch them out so often beyond the fact that they are pro's and likely get free wedges.  

 

 

Also pro's practice WAY more than amateurs do. Lets say you take a pro who practices 100 wedge shots a day. Now ask a guy who might practice once a week and play once or twice a week how many wedge shots they hit. They probably only hit 100 wedge shots over 2-3 week span. So, think about how fast a pro wears out a wedge. 

post #12 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

This is interesting but conflicts with the practices of pro's.  I was under the impression that pro's switched out their wedges for new ones quite often, sometimes after each tournament.  If grooves and milling have minimal impact on spin then why do they switch them out so often beyond the fact that they are pro's and likely get free wedges.  

 

I think a lot of this is just because they can. If someone was offering to replace your wedges once a week you wouldn't say no would you. It might also be because they think it makes a difference which means it does make a difference through placebo effect. I hope my second point makes sense and i haven't made it confusing

post #13 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

This is interesting but conflicts with the practices of pro's.

 

What does?

 

The post is about the milling the surface texture of the face, as I read it. Why would swapping out your wedges change how that reads?

post #14 of 52

This is pretty cool to think about it. Visually, my milled Scratch wedges look like they'd impart more spin on the ball. The texture feels like a file and you would just assume that this surface would give you more spin and grip. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it honestly.

I think of this as like sandpaper vs regular notebook paper. The former obviously has much more grip. I would think the "file" texture of a milled wedge would impart more spin, even if it's minuscule, as opposed to a wedge with no milling. Admittedly, that's not the most logical approach in thinking about this. But, it's the best visual description I could come up with on 2 hours of sleep.

post #15 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

What does?

 

The post is about the milling the surface texture of the face, as I read it. Why would swapping out your wedges change how that reads?

I was extrapolating off the point made that wedges without grooves performed virtually the same as those with grooves and was questioning the value of pro's replacing their wedges as often as every week.  

post #16 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I was extrapolating off the point made that wedges without grooves performed virtually the same as those with grooves and was questioning the value of pro's replacing their wedges as often as every week.  

 

So again, I think this had a lot more to do with the milling of the face surface texture, not about the grooves. Grooves do add spin to the golf ball. I didn't think John said anything to the contrary. This is about surface texture.

post #17 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post

I guess it goes to support the evidence that rusted wedges don't spin more either.

 

More on that here

http://thesandtrap.com/t/69981/how-long-should-wedges-last#post_897484

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post


Correct me if I'm wrong, but this testing was one a clean fairway lie. Regular grooves are presumably still necessary out of the rough and sand to channel away water and grass.

 

Yep that would be my understanding as well.

post #18 of 52

So did they not bother with their testing then, or are we just waiting for the results?

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