Who Pushes Off With Their Trail Leg?

[Vinsk]

45 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Great post @iacas

Just filmed this to show what a "push" would be.

 

I'm afraid we're gonna get a response from @hoselpalooza that will disappoint. So just to prepare for it I'll take a gander at what he'll write:

That video doesn't prove anything. I've shown multiple videos and cited experts that you've yet  been able to disprove. You're clearly wrong on this matter.

BTW, great video Mike.

[saevel25]

9 hours ago, mvmac said:

Just filmed this to show what a "push" would be.

Great video! Thanks for going into more detail about what is going on in a golf swing.

[iacas]

At the end of the day:

• The trail leg and ankle (and foot) aren't shown to be doing anything actively. The trail knee, hip, and ankle all gain flexion, which is the opposite of "pushing."
• What small push "forces" are seen at the trail foot are simply a matter of the trail foot being the point of contact with the ground. The forces originate from other parts of the body, and are transmitted via that contact point. Magically replacing the trail leg with a pole at the end of the backswing would produce similar forces (actually higher forces since the pole wouldn't re-gain flexion, but if the pole had a joint structure like a human but didn't actually use the muscles to push, then it would be similar. 😄)
• If there was any actual pushing it would show up as a spike in the pressure or force under that foot, when in reality the trail pressure trace is seen decreasing only throughout the late backswing and into the early follow-through.
• When our trail foot does slip, it slips out behind us because the foot is actually mostly unweighted and because the mild shearing force opposite the direction of rotation (trail hip rotates toward the golf ball, trail foot will often slip out the other direction, force of friction is in the direction of the hip's rotation). It doesn't slip out backward, even if we are standing on a dolly with wheels or a bit of ice. We're still able to get our weight forward - it's rotation that's hampered.
• Feel ain't real, but don't try to tell that to the OP.

It's not that complicated.

[Warlock]

On 6/13/2019 at 4:57 AM, mvmac said:

Great post @iacas

Just filmed this to show what a "push" would be.

 

I've been reading through this old but interesting thread and wondering whether I could ask a question about the above video and the 'regain' in the right leg flex by P5 in the downswing. I'm assuming the 'core' (not sure what that means exactly) is turning the pelvis , but what is stopping the right hip joint from spinning prematurely towards the ball-target line? For example , if the right leg is becoming unweighted in the early downswing and regaining some flex with the right heel raising up , wouldn't the 'core' be spinning the right hip towards ball-target line?  

Edited December 14, 2020 by Warlock

[iacas]

It does.

[iacas]

A guy who can't walk… can still play some pretty darn good golf.

Because… there's almost no "pushing off with the trail leg" in the downswing.

[JetFan1983]

This is a feel-related comment here, so take this with a grain of salt, but I've heard a good feel for doing this correctly is the trail leg/foot feeling "very light" as soon as the downswing begins, with the trail knee regaining flex, the trail heel coming off the ground, and the trail hip turning. The majority of the force/pressure is felt in the lead foot, kind of like you're hitting the ball standing on one leg or something. It might "feel" that extreme for some.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of "pushing off the trail leg." 

Again, this is just a feel. But from what I've heard, it can be helpful, especially if you're someone who has been taught to push off with your back leg.

 

This AMG vid from August 18th, 2022 has a good discussion on this topic. 

Edit: The "Pushing off the Trail Leg" discussion begins at 10:40, but if you haven't watched it before, I recommend watching the whole thing.

Edited November 29, 2022 by JetFan1983

[Darkfrog]

37 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

This is a feel-related comment here, so take this with a grain of salt, but I've heard a good feel for doing this correctly is the trail leg/foot feeling "very light" as soon as the downswing begins, with the trail knee regaining flex, the trail heel coming off the ground, and the trail hip turning.

I had a revelation about this first time I saw real time force/pressure plate data during a lesson. To change the force/pressure, all I had to feel was what you describe - lightening of either foot would have an instant force/pressure shift to the other side, no pushing involved at all.

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

I had a revelation about this first time I saw real time force/pressure plate data during a lesson. To change the force/pressure, all I had to feel was what you describe - lightening of either foot would have an instant force/pressure shift to the other side, no pushing involved at all.

And when you tell someone to move their pressure to the right foot… they'll often push off the left foot to move their mass right.

[NeilV]

Disclaimer before I start: High handicapper who far too often self-diagnoses.

Proper weight shift has been (one of) my biggest swing issues.

I disagree that you can't push off your trail foot and still show flexion in the trail knee, which seems to be one of the points of contention through this thread. One of my many problems was that I was actually pushing from the ball of my trail foot and using ankle flex to drive my hips towards the target. It looked on video, and felt as though I was shifting my weight correctly as my right heel was lifted off the ground and my knee still increased flex. It doesn't change the fact that the force plates would have still shown a spike on the trail foot, just that video evidence is not evidence (or not) of pushing off. 

It led to some issues,:

• It sometime increased my "height" if that's the right term, leading to thin contact and/or (or maybe due to, I don't have the skillset or equipment to be able to tell) early extension.
• I sometimes shifted my whole body (torso included) ahead of the ball with predictably poor results.
• It "felt" as though it limited my hip rotation.

I actually watched the AMG force plates video on weight shift a while back, and spent some range time working on the hip slide. It made my ball striking a good bit more consistent.

I'm still crap, just less crap than I was 😉

 

On 6/7/2019 at 8:46 PM, iacas said:

It’s been explained several times in other topics. Just because someone hasn’t posted in this thread in the last 15 minutes doesn’t mean "nobody has told you." Look it up for yourself.

When you look at a pressure mat reading, pushing would spike the pressure under that foot. (Other things can do it too, like the arms coming down, which moves them from more centered to more rightward, hence the "butt cleft" seen in Grant Waite's traces, for example.) Justin Thomas being 82/18 (front/trail) is NOT an indication that he's "pushed off" with his right foot at all.

The short version: you fall a little bit and your core muscles bump your hips forward a little. Stand there with your hands on your hips and just push your left hip out - you use your core muscles to do so, you don't push off with your right leg. From there the left leg extends which really spikes the pressure/GRF under the left foot.

@iacas Would you mind explaining if you have a couple of minutes what you mean by "fall a little bit" please?

 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, NeilV said:

I disagree that you can't push off your trail foot and still show flexion in the trail knee, which seems to be one of the points of contention through this thread.

I'm not going to repeat a bunch of things that were already argued, but basically, you're not "pushing off" by any normal definition if:

• Your trail knee and hip are flexing (increasing flex).
• Your pressure is decreasing under the trail foot.

Feel ain't real.

2 hours ago, NeilV said:

It doesn't change the fact that the force plates would have still shown a spike on the trail foot, just that video evidence is not evidence (or not) of pushing off.

So…

• You were swinging incorrectly and increasing pressure in the trail foot during the downswing.
• You were lifting the heel and increasing flex in the knee.
• You were plantar flexing to push off the trail foot.

So you were making a bad swing and possibly pushing off the trail foot slightly (not with your leg, but with your ankle)?

I think you're making my point for me.

2 hours ago, NeilV said:

@iacas Would you mind explaining if you have a couple of minutes what you mean by "fall a little bit" please?

Since your center of gravity is between your feet, if you "soften" the lead knee and hip, you'll "fall" to the left a little.

It's a more passive move than an active "shoving" of the hips forward.

[NeilV]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

So…

• You were swinging incorrectly and increasing pressure in the trail foot during the downswing.
• You were lifting the heel and increasing flex in the knee.
• You were plantar flexing to push off the trail foot.

So you were making a bad swing and possibly pushing off the trail foot slightly (not with your leg, but with your ankle)?

I think you're making my point for me.

Correct, and yes I was making your point. Probably didn't explain it that well, but my point was that you can't tell from video only whether there is any pushing taking place with the trail foot but force plates are unequivocal.

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Since your center of gravity is between your feet, if you "soften" the lead knee and hip, you'll "fall" to the left a little.

It's a more passive move than an active "shoving" of the hips forward.

 Thank you! Just made a few practice swings and I'm definitely shoving my hips forward now. This will be my next range practice goal.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, NeilV said:

Correct, and yes I was making your point. Probably didn't explain it that well, but my point was that you can't tell from video only whether there is any pushing taking place with the trail foot but force plates are unequivocal.

Yeah, I thought so. It's a bit confusing because though the original topic asks what it asks ("Who pushes off with their trail leg?"), it's probably not the best title because generally speaking… you shouldn't.

3 hours ago, NeilV said:

Thank you! Just made a few practice swings and I'm definitely shoving my hips forward now. This will be my next range practice goal.

You can see some of the "flow" drills here:

30-Day Practice Plan - Golf Evolution

And elsewhere on the site. It's a pretty passive move. Not a lot going on. It starts very early in the backswing, too.

[NeilV]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Yeah, I thought so. It's a bit confusing because though the original topic asks what it asks ("Who pushes off with their trail leg?"), it's probably not the best title because generally speaking… you shouldn't.

You can see some of the "flow" drills here:

30-Day Practice Plan - Golf Evolution

And elsewhere on the site. It's a pretty passive move. Not a lot going on. It starts very early in the backswing, too.

Great resource! Can't believe I haven't come across this before.

Thanks for your time 🙂

 

[colin007]

On 12/22/2022 at 3:29 AM, NeilV said:

Great resource! Can't believe I haven't come across this before.

Thanks for your time 🙂

 

Best golf instruction website on the internets right here

[Big Lex]

I think the modern discoveries about how the legs and hips work in the golf swing probably have alot to do with why typical touring pros today are so powerful and accurate, and why you see fewer pros today giving up distance for "control." They have better swing mechanics and can move at faster speeds with less error than players did 40 and 50 years ago. 

I was told by at least one club pro back in the 1980s to fire my right hip to start the downswing. I think many years ago - 40 or more - probably alot of teachers did tell students to "get off the right side" or "fire the right hip" or whatever. Maybe in their own swings, they sequenced correctly and had their weight forward early enough to hit good shots, so they didn't have to think of "pushing off." But they recognized that their students didn't have their weight forward, and so told them what they thought made sense, even if it was not correct bio-mechanically. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Big Lex

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Big Lex said:

I was told by at least one club pro back in the 1980s to fire my right hip to start the downswing. I think many years ago - 40 or more - probably alot of teachers did tell students to "get off the right side" or "fire the right hip" or whatever. Maybe in their own swings, they sequenced correctly and had their weight forward early enough to hit good shots, so they didn't have to think of "pushing off." But they recognized that their students didn't have their weight forward, and so told them what they thought made sense, even if it was not correct bio-mechanically. 

That might explain things in the 80s, but how do you explain people who still maintain this in 2022? 😄

The only "pushing off" you could even really do while decreasing pressure and increasing knee/hip flex would be to abduct your trail leg a little. There may be a tiny bit of that going on… but not much.

[iacas]