Breaking Bad

[JetFan1983]

However, in a double post, I will say that I do agree that you are justified in your suspicions that Walt killing Lydia was a stretch from a writing stand point, when you take into account what Walt knows from his limited perspective about her.

But ultimately, I do think that the song "baby blue" in the end divulged just how much he loved and took pride in the fact that he was the greatest cook who ever lived, and damn it if anyone was going to steal it from him and give it to the world after his death.

Frankly, he was probably going to kill Jesse too had he found out Jesse was a full-on partner with the Aryans, and not their cook slave. He knew in his heart Jesse would never cook again if released from his shackles.

[Golfingdad]

I see why you would think that, but Walt clearly didn't expect Todd to be able to make it blue. Remember the scene with badger and the other guy, Walt asked them if what he heard on charlie rose was true, and that's how he knew Jessie was alive, right? And Todd couldn't make it. So maybe they kept that step secret?

He knew Todd was incapable of making pure blue stuff from Lydia's visit to the car wash in the first episode of this half season.  Purely from memory, I believe that he said something to Lydia to the effect of "I left Todd with a viable operation."  Certainly we could make assumptions that he intentionally made sure that Todd couldn't make the good stuff, but I don't remember them ever telling us that.

So from that point, he knew there was no blue stuff out there, and when Badger and Skinny Pete told him there was, he knew it had to be Jesse.  At that point, I gathered it was more about him being angry that JESSE was making blue meth, not so much that jesse was making BLUE METH, if you catch my drift.

All good points. But I think you're underestimating how pissed Walt gets when you mess with his baby blue. Walt never intentionally gave Todd a bad formula. He just knew that Todd would never be able to recreate the blue without much, much more practice with Walt present, a la Jesse. Jesse could not achieve blue level production levels on his own until at some point in season 3, and that was after many, many, many cooks under Walt's guidance. And remember how much Walt freaked out when he found out Jesse was capable of making it on his own? Or how he got Gale fired after he realized he would soon be able to learn how to cook it blue on his own?

The decision to kill Lydia was most likely made the night before this meeting, after Walt realized that the Aryans must be using Jesse to cook for them. He then assumes that they have connections to Lydia who is then distributing for them.

Walt's entire run in the finale relied heavily on luck, kismet, good fortune, whatever. The keys falling from "the sky" after Walt prays to God to let him return to ABQ sort of suggest that in the episode's cold open.

He assumes Lydia will be at the coffee shop at 10am on Tuesday. He then assumes, that if she is there, and is distributing the blue for the Aryans, this is his one chance to off her with the ricin. So he puts the tampered stivia packet there just in case. When she actually does show up and meets with Todd, his suspicions have proven correct. Had Todd not shown, Walt very easily could have walked up to that table, and taken the stivia packet before she had a chance to use it.

Again, pure luck played into Walt's favor in this scene, just as it did in the final scene, just as it had in him eluding the authorities throughout the episode despite walking around in plane sight, or just as it had in magically finding the car keys in the beginning.

That's my take, anyway.

Lot's of luck, definitely.  I wonder what he would have done had some random person inadvertently sat down at Lydia's table, lol.

Regarding the bold ... I thought that was all about self preservation.  He knew that Gus didn't really like him, just his product, and if his product could be produced by others, then he knew he was expendable.

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

All good points. But I think you're underestimating how pissed Walt gets when you mess with his baby blue. Walt never intentionally gave Todd a bad formula. He just knew that Todd would never be able to recreate the blue without much, much more practice with Walt present, a la Jesse. Jesse could not achieve blue level production levels on his own until at some point in season 3, and that was after many, many, many cooks under Walt's guidance. And remember how much Walt freaked out when he found out Jesse was capable of making it on his own? Or how he got Gale fired after he realized he would soon be able to learn how to cook it blue on his own?

The decision to kill Lydia was most likely made the night before this meeting, after Walt realized that the Aryans must be using Jesse to cook for them. He then assumes that they have connections to Lydia who is then distributing for them.

Walt's entire run in the finale relied heavily on luck, kismet, good fortune, whatever. The keys falling from "the sky" after Walt prays to God to let him return to ABQ sort of suggest that in the episode's cold open.

He assumes Lydia will be at the coffee shop at 10am on Tuesday. He then assumes, that if she is there, and is distributing the blue for the Aryans, this is his one chance to off her with the ricin. So he puts the tampered stivia packet there just in case. When she actually does show up and meets with Todd, his suspicions have proven correct. Had Todd not shown, Walt very easily could have walked up to that table, and taken the stivia packet before she had a chance to use it.

Again, pure luck played into Walt's favor in this scene, just as it did in the final scene, just as it had in him eluding the authorities throughout the episode despite walking around in plane sight, or just as it had in magically finding the car keys in the beginning.

That's my take, anyway.

Lot's of luck, definitely.  I wonder what he would have done had some random person inadvertently sat down at Lydia's table, lol.

Regarding the bold ... I thought that was all about self preservation.  He knew that Gus didn't really like him, just his product, and if his product could be produced by others, then he knew he was expendable.

Oh, I definitely read it that way too at the time and that certainly was the reason in those scenes, but the song "Baby Blue" at the end does suggest Walt had a far deeper affection for his formula than I had originally imagined, and I think, sheds a bit of a different light on those earlier scenes as well.

And that's pretty messed up. There wasn't a "oh how I wronged you Skylar," or "gee I really screwed up my family" type of a theme song in the end. It was a love song for his blue meth haha. Creepy. He died in its arms, so to speak.

[Otis32]

In my mind Lydia had to go because she was a paranoid, emotional loose cannon and Walt could never trust that his family would be safe as long as she was alive.  I believe the writers wanted her killed off because she had almost no redeeming qualities as a human being.

The Badfinger song with the Baby Blue lyric did a great job of communicating Walt's love for the "process" but to me was the perfect choice because of the opening line "I guess I got what I deserve".

[JetFan1983]

In my mind Lydia had to go because she was a paranoid, emotional loose cannon and Walt could never trust that his family would be safe as long as she was alive.

When Walt finds out that Skylar was threatened by the Aryans and told to never mention Lydia, I'm sure Walt felt 100% justified in poisoning her. I'm not 100% sure that he felt Lydia would off his family however prior to hearing that from his wife. That said, there may have been enough evidence for him to come to that conclusion you present, in which case, I like your point. She certainly did have an itchy trigger finger when it came to making sure her identity could never be revealed.

Still, I think Golfingdad does bring up a good point as well that from Walt's perspective, killing Lydia seems a bit of a stretch... even though I think I justified the decision, at least to myself, thru what I wrote in my previous posts.

[iacas]

In my mind Lydia had to go because she was a paranoid, emotional loose cannon and Walt could never trust that his family would be safe as long as she was alive.

I think that's it entirely.

[Golfingdad]

Oh, I definitely read it that way too at the time and that certainly was the reason in those scenes, but the song "Baby Blue" at the end does suggest Walt had a far deeper affection for his formula than I had originally imagined, and I think, sheds a bit of a different light on those earlier scenes as well.

And that's pretty messed up. There wasn't a "oh how I wronged you Skylar," or "gee I really screwed up my family" type of a theme song in the end. It was a love song for his blue meth haha. Creepy. He died in its arms, so to speak.

Good points.  However, even though he admitted to Skyler that he really enjoyed doing it, that doesn't automatically mean that he didn't regret it.  Meaning, I don't think that him loving his "baby blue" necessarily means he loved it more than Skyler or didn't wish he could go back and undo everything he did to his family if he had the chance.

But, yeah, I could totally buy everything you're selling. ;)

[Golfingdad]

I think that's it entirely.

And that was kind of the crux of my question.  It's definitely obvious to us because we know ...

1.  That she tried to kill Mike and all of his guys before Walt did

2.  She orchestrated the massacre of the Phoenix guys to get the methlamine and equipment back into the Aryans hands.

3.  She basically put a hit out on Skyler.

But Walt really only knows of #1.  Of course, he did also spend a lot of time with Lydia (every Tuesday morning at 10am ;)) and he was certainly a smart man, so surely he knew a lot about her personality.

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

I think that's it entirely.

And that was kind of the crux of my question.  It's definitely obvious to us because we know ...

1.  That she tried to kill Mike and all of his guys before Walt did

2.  She orchestrated the massacre of the Phoenix guys to get the methlamine and equipment back into the Aryans hands.

3.  She basically put a hit out on Skyler.

But Walt really only knows of #1.  Of course, he did also spend a lot of time with Lydia (every Tuesday morning at 10am ;)) and he was certainly a smart man, so surely he knew a lot about her personality.

Yea, I agree, GD. I do think Otis made a great point, but from Walt's perspective, it's harder to see that her paranoia might mean the execution of Skylar.

Still, Otis did raise a great point.

[JetFan1983]

OK, double posting again. Sorry.

I think I agree now with Erik and Otis. It does make sense that the best reason to get rid of Lydia is to protect Skylar, and then by association, Walter Jr.

Walt knows this whole thing will end at the Nazi compound. He knows he's not coming out of there alive, whether he kills the Nazis or not. Therefore, it's likely Walt thought that in the aftermath of this bloodbath, with a full investigation taking place, Lydia being the lone survivor could decide that it's in her best interest to get rid of the only witness left that can possibly testify she had any association with the Blue Empire, based on all her past examples of paranoia against potential witnesses.

[Golfingdad]

OK, double posting again. Sorry.  I think I agree now with Erik and Otis. It does make sense that the best reason to get rid of Lydia is to protect Skylar, and then by association, Walter Jr. Walt knows this whole thing will end at the Nazi compound. He knows he's not coming out of there alive, whether he kills the Nazis or not. Therefore, it's likely Walt thought that in the aftermath of this bloodbath, with a full investigation taking place, Lydia being the lone survivor could decide that it's in her best interest to get rid of the only witness left that can possibly testify she had any association with the Blue Empire, based on all her past examples of paranoia against potential witnesses.

This is totally 100% plausible. He knows Lydia is always a nervous wreck and knows she knows skyler. This is my answer. :) Thanks guys.

[Heisenberg]

quick note about the Jane death/ Walt watching her die.

She was in one position, on her side, as drug addicts sleep to NOT choke on their vomit. When he shook Jesse, Jane rolled over onto her back. So in essence Walt set her up to die if she threw up, which she did, and then didn't move her when he could.

Furthermore its funny to note that in that there was foreshadowing to the event. In a scene we see baby Holly get rolled on her side and propped up so she didn't roll back over. In addition, we see Marie do the same to a recovering Hank

I am not sure 100% if these all occur in these occur in the same episode but it was around the same time.

My fiance and I are rewatching the whole series and watched those episodes the other night

[colin007]

sooo....has watching this show made anyone else want to try meth?

[dsc123]

sooo....has watching this show made anyone else want to try meth?

lol, i was thinking about inquiring whether anyone on here had but figured it was 99.99% certain the answer would be no.

[Golfingdad]

sooo....has watching this show made anyone else want to try meth?

lol ... No effing way!!!! [quote name="dsc123" url="/t/10116/breaking-bad/510#post_904321"] lol, i was thinking about inquiring whether anyone on here had but figured it was 99.99% certain the answer would be no. [/quote]I plead the fifth.

[iacas]

I have a degree in medicinal chemistry and have synthesized a fair number of various compounds. ;)

Ask me sometime (in person) about my research project about how derivatives of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine can help Alzheimer's patients (or rats, at least…).

[nevets88]

Now that we've all seen the series to the end, what do you think of the flash forwards? When Walt was in the diner and in the abandoned run down cordoned off house.

Did it take make the season better, worse or no influence at all? Anyone know of any interviews where VG says anything about it?

[dsc123]

Now that we've all seen the series to the end, what do you think of the flash forwards? When Walt was in the diner and in the abandoned run down cordoned off house.

Did it take make the season better, worse or no influence at all? Anyone know of any interviews where VG says anything about it?

I'd prefer no flash forwards.  I think the desert scene when Hank died (as well as other scenes, probably) would have been more suspenseful if there was a chance , however small, that Walt could have gone down.

At the same time though, seeing him with the AR and the ricin did lead to a lot of speculation, which was fun.