Why are There Two Titleist Pro V1 Models?

[leftybutnotPM]

2 hours ago, Mr22putt said:

 

I need a higher ball flight...but I prefer the softer feel of the ProV1...the ProV1x feels too clicky.....and the ProV1 more with the putter which is typically 40% of all strokes during a rd of golf.

There ya go!!!!

Had to happen!!!

[ChetlovesMer]

7 hours ago, arturo28mx said:

Just look at the number of shafts out there. I'm sure many have the exact same performance. However, people spend more money when they think they found something that "exactly" fits their game. (many people call this marketing)

Agree totally. 

I spent a ton of time getting fitted for a new driver last February. It was supposed to be a 45 minute fitting, but I was the guy's only appointment of the day so we spent about an hour and forty five minutes. (Okay, some of the time we were chit-chatting.) It finally came down to a shaft which had no up-charge and a shaft which had a $300 up-charge. I hit the expensive shaft, on average, about 0.35 yards further (13 inches). I hit the "standard" shaft about in about a yard tighter dispersion. The guy, to his credit, said "You can do what you want, but if it were my money I'd buy the "standard" priced shaft, you hit them both equally well."

I will say this, the expensive shaft was cool looking. … Not $300 worth of cool looking.  

[Vinsk]

10 hours ago, Mr22putt said:

I need a higher ball flight...but I prefer the softer feel of the ProV1...the ProV1x feels too clicky.....and the ProV1 more with the putter which is typically 40% of all strokes during a rd of golf.

I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona I’d love to sell you.

 

[Sandy Divot]

10 hours ago, David in FL said:

Not if they get enough incremental sales to offset the costs associated with doing so...

They are also taking more shelf space in golf shops, and that increases their presence at retail, and reduces space for the competition.

[ncates00]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

I'm completely out on anything MGS does these days. They apparently wouldn't know how to conduct a good test if it smacked them in the ass and called them Charlie.

Hmm.  Interesting.  What about their testing gives you great pause?  (asking because I don't know; thought the testing looked pretty good)

 

While I'm not 100% sure on the actual differences between the 2 balls, the V/X ball has been the most consistent ball in terms of ball speed from shot to shot and ball to ball that I've played.  I've played other premium balls that had great variance in the ball speed--I recognize a lot of it is me, but I shouldn't see much variance when I know what a good shot feels like (tons of balls hit on my GC2).  

For the old V and X, I did see a bit of a difference.  I thought the old X launched higher and had less spin, while the the old V launched lower and had more spin.  Seems like the new X and V are almost the same ball haha.  

IIRC, I think I went with the X because it was the first premium Titleist ball in yellow; I had gamed the Bridgestone B series, Nike RZN Black, and the Titleist NXT in yellow prior.

[klineka]

12 hours ago, Piz said:

For the same reason there is chicken or beef and ranch or bleu cheese.

Chicken and beef taste different, look different, smell different, and have different nutritional facts or "performance" if you will.

The ProV1 and ProV1X do not.

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Hmm.  Interesting.  What about their testing gives you great pause?  (asking because I don't know; thought the testing looked pretty good)

Their testing has been poor for some time now. Limited sample size, basic facts about some of the products are wrong… etc. Look at their ball test and their personal launch monitor testing for example of how to poorly conduct testing. The ball testing I have heard that they hit VERY few balls with no real accounting for varied weather conditions. Look at the dispersion rates on some of the balls. Look at the basic facts they get wrong - about almost every product - in the PLM test. Look at the comments.

They're relying on past successes and are putting out shoddy work.

24 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

For the old V and X, I did see a bit of a difference.  I thought the old X launched higher and had less spin, while the the old V launched lower and had more spin.  Seems like the new X and V are almost the same ball haha.

Depending on what you mean by "old" this changed - the balls flip flopped - several years ago.

I know you like your GC2, but it was really not all that accurate a launch monitor in our testing. The GC Quad is much better… the GC2 couldn't even compete with the doppler systems out at that time, indoors or out, let alone the ones since.

[ChetlovesMer]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

They generate almost exactly the same numbers. Why are there two different versions of this ball?

I'm going to take a serious stab at answering this question. My guess; Titleist worked with a bunch of tour pros. One (or more) of them kept them tweaking the ball until it ended up being the Pro-V1x. Meanwhile one (or more) of them wanted what's now the Pro-V1. So, now Titleist is stuck with these two golf balls which are REALLY REALLY REALLY close to the same. BUT there are a few tour pros who can tell the difference and want the ball to be just a certain way. They don't want to lose those pros. 

So, what is Titleist to do? You are manufacturing two different balls (granted the difference is really slight.) Well, you may as well market them. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I'm going to take a serious stab at answering this question. My guess; Titleist worked with a bunch of tour pros. One (or more) of them kept them tweaking the ball until it ended up being the Pro-V1x. Meanwhile one (or more) of them wanted what's now the Pro-V1. So, now Titleist is stuck with these two golf balls which are REALLY REALLY REALLY close to the same. BUT there are a few tour pros who can tell the difference and want the ball to be just a certain way. They don't want to lose those pros. 

Titleist makes available plenty of old stock balls, though. Some guys out there are still playing a ball from 2015, for example.

[ncates00]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Their testing has been poor for some time now. Limited sample size, basic facts about some of the products are wrong… etc. Look at their ball test and their personal launch monitor testing for example of how to poorly conduct testing. The ball testing I have heard that they hit VERY few balls with no real accounting for varied weather conditions. Look at the dispersion rates on some of the balls. Look at the basic facts they get wrong - about almost every product - in the PLM test. Look at the comments.

They're relying on past successes and are putting out shoddy work.

Wow.  Didn't realize that.  Thanks for the heads up.

 

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Depending on what you mean by "old" this changed - the balls flip flopped - several years ago.

True.

 

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

I know you like your GC2, but it was really not all that accurate a launch monitor in our testing. The GC Quad is much better… the GC2 couldn't even compete with the doppler systems out at that time, indoors or out, let alone the ones since.

I'm surprised by that.  I know the Quad is outstanding, but it wasn't out yet and I cannot afford a Quad right now.  I also realize that I will be slightly biased because it was a big purchase (for a toy) and that it is my unit.  

Nonetheless, my unit works really well.  I've taken it to the range and used it with my range finder and found it to be exceptional.  I've also compared it head to head with Trackman 2 and Trackman 4 at the club.  I don't have HMT, but the ball data has been very, very god. Very impressed with that old unit. 

My unit has the upgraded "super flash" so maybe that makes a difference.  I don't know.  I just know that it is pretty much spot on.  I have some buddies that are in that scratch to plus 2 range and they enjoy hitting on the unit and said it's bang on their carry numbers. 

I do think the unit exaggerates two things: 1) amount of draw spin and 2) how far low spin shots go.  Otherwise, I've had nothing but good things to say about it.  

[ChetlovesMer]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Titleist makes available plenty of old stock balls, though. Some guys out there are still playing a ball from 2015, for example.

Yeah, I remember reading someplace that Bernhard Langer had a closet full of ProV1's from like 2013 or something like that. 

Again, my theory is just a guess. But it happens in the world I work in a lot. Take a company that makes hydraulic pumps for mobile equipment. John Deere comes a long and says "We have to have a round trunnion on that pump". Caterpillar says "We have to have a square trunnion on that pump." Each represents 20% of the market. So, you produce both pumps. Even though they are basically the same pump. Now, you have to market to all the other smaller companies. You convince them that the need either a round or a square trunnion. Never mind the fact that now all the linkage manufacturers have to make 2 different linkage connections. Never mind that you are now stocking 2 different finished parts which effectively do exactly the same thing. You simply don't want to lose the revenue from the huge customers. Plus you get a lot of sales because lot of smaller companies will just buy "What ever John Deere is using." or "What ever Caterpillar is using." Kind of the same concept. 

[rehmwa]

13 hours ago, billchao said:

But it's not really about marketing. If both balls are essentially the same, they're just wasting money producing and promoting two different products.

"producing" - you mean stamping the same balls with two different labels - literally the difference of having an 'x' or not.  that cost adder is as near to zero as it gets.

"promoting" - you mean when each commercial talks about both and they don't ever run separate commercials for each model - brilliant, every commercial sells both and appeals to giving a customer a 'choice'.

 

It's marketing - the competition has tons of models that 'claim' to perform differently - they have to be able to provide parity or lose business to them.  but providing an illusion of choice, Titleist can claim more business from those that think this matters.  AND it's only 2 choices, but that's enough.

Look at their site (the ball fitting application - essentially, "how much money you got?" and "do you swing fast?" - if you have money they go to the ProV/x pair instead of the low cost balls - then the next question will assess your ego to offer the 'x' or not), when the questions are asked about a 'woman's' ball, or a senior ball, they still direct people to the ProV.......saying it's good for that also.  It's about very tight distributions (sigma is more important than mean) - if they do that well, the one size DOES fit all.  But people won't believe that, so stamp them.  You just as well ask - "do you like black or silver boxes?"

It's masterful.  As for people that care? - I will never question the placebo effect for coordination and focus based activities..... so give them something to encourage more confidence.

It must have just killed them to start offering yellow.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by rehmwa

[ncates00]

7 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Yeah, I remember reading someplace that Bernhard Langer had a closet full of ProV1's from like 2013 or something like that. 

Again, my theory is just a guess. But it happens in the world I work in a lot. Take a company that makes hydraulic pumps for mobile equipment. John Deere comes a long and says "We have to have a round trunnion on that pump". Caterpillar says "We have to have a square trunnion on that pump." Each represents 20% of the market. So, you produce both pumps. Even though they are basically the same pump. Now, you have to market to all the other smaller companies. You convince them that the need either a round or a square trunnion. Never mind the fact that now all the linkage manufacturers have to make 2 different linkage connections. Never mind that you are now stocking 2 different finished parts which effectively do exactly the same thing. You simply don't want to lose the revenue from the huge customers. Plus you get a lot of sales because lot of smaller companies will just buy "What ever John Deere is using." or "What ever Caterpillar is using." Kind of the same concept. 

Just like with "tour only" clubs and custom fitting, I'd say Titleist, and others, have a "tour only" menu of balls that players pick from.  That could include new prototypes and old favorites.  

1 minute ago, rehmwa said:

t's marketing - the competition has tons of models that 'claim' to perform differently.  but providing an illusion of choice, Titleist can claim more business from those that think this matters.

Makes sense.  If you're Titleist, you want to keep market share by making a Titleist ball for everyone (or the appearance of).  

[rehmwa]

5 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Makes sense.  If you're Titleist, you want to keep market share by making a Titleist ball for everyone (or the appearance of).  

Yeah - and they can do it with the same ball and only 2 choices (I'm ignoring the NXT's and Tour etcs.....in this) AND charge the max.  These guys are brilliant.  They really know how to leverage "people" that operate on 'feel' and assumptions.

Edited November 26, 2019 by rehmwa

[iacas]

@rehmwa they’re not literally the same ball with different stamps. Different inside, different dimple pattern, etc. Just nearly identical performance.

[rehmwa]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

@rehmwa they’re not literally the same ball with different stamps. Different inside, different dimple pattern, etc. Just nearly identical performance.

I got on a roll.  Hard to stop.  (thanks for the info)

Perhaps Bryson might be able to tell us the differences that are there, but inside of the natural variation of a human swing, but still used in the choice of ball......

but if there isn't a tangible performance diff - they need to go to the drawing board, or drop a line......Else they aren't as brilliant as I thought.

Still, it's a huge improvement over, say, Callaway, with more models than I can count.....

Edited November 26, 2019 by rehmwa

[ncates00]

2 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Yeah - and they can do it with the same ball and only 2 choices (I'm ignoring the NXT's and Tour etcs.....in this) AND charge the max.  These guys are brilliant.  They really know how to leverage "people" that operate on 'feel' and assumptions.

I agree, but maybe they're getting ready to put a new version out.  They've put a prototype ball for experimentation.  I think TXG and Crossfield did videos on it.  

Business strategy and ethics aside, they likely do make the best ball, both in terms of performance and manufacturing consistency.  I've never had a "bad" X/V; but, I've had other premium balls that felt either off or inconsistent or both.

(I'm not a Titleist fan boy either.  I have 0 Titleist clubs in my bag, but since they came out with yellow premium balls, I'm on board 🙂 )

[rehmwa]

2 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Business strategy and ethics aside, they likely do make the best ball,

Even if they were the same ball, I don't think there woul be an ethics problem at all.

I like them too.  I find more of them than any other ball and play them exclusively.  I even reverted to them when it got cold this year and decided I like them better than the 'cold temp' ball I had selected the last couple years.  As usual - it's 'mostly' me, not the gear.  I'm not good enough.

Edited November 26, 2019 by rehmwa