Lemieux vs. Gretzky for GOAT

[billchao]

7 minutes ago, chilepepper said:

I’m going with Patrick Roy. The guy that faces the shots. All around goat

Have to disagree, and this is coming from a guy that watched Martin Brodeur play his entire career. Goalies are simply not valuable enough on their own to be considered GOAT in hockey.

Plus, everyone knows Roy isn’t the goalie GOAT...

 

 

It’s Dominik Hasek 😉

[mcanadiens]

The argument one might make for Bobby Orr has to emphasize that he was a defenseman, did things no defenseman ever did before him and very few have done since. It changed the way coaches looked at the position. Without considering the context, simply looking at adjusted points per game stats against the greatest forwards of all time, is a disservice to Orr.. 

Consider this. The top ten scoring seasons in NHL history for a defenseman are owned entirely by two men. Orr and Paul Coffey. Coffey, you may know, played with both Gretzky and Lemieux. Only three other players have ever scored 100 points or more in a season. Al McInnis, Brian Leetch and Dennis Potvin did it one time each. Talk about different eras? The highest ranked season after 2000 came in at #40 when Brent Burns scored 83 points in 2018-19.

Bobby Orr deserves some credit because he was more than just an offensive player. He did play defense, he hit, could fight if he had to. Of course, its some of those type of things that helped shorten his career.

Lemieux is said to have saved the Penguin franchise, but Orr made a ho-hum Bruin franchise into a massive thing in Boston.  They say that ice rinks popped out of the ground in Boston during the 70s and it was because of Orr.

Not sure if I'd call him GOAT, but he should be in the top 3.

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by mcanadiens

[Cut4]

33 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

The argument one might make for Bobby Orr has to emphasize that he was a defenseman, did things no defenseman ever did before him and very few have done since. It changed the way coaches looked at the position. Without considering the context, simply looking at adjusted points per game stats against the greatest forwards of all time, is a disservice to Orr.. 

Consider this. The top ten scoring seasons in NHL history for a defenseman are owned entirely by two men. Orr and Paul Coffey. Coffey, you may know, played with both Gretzky and Lemieux. Only three other players have ever scored 100 points or more in a season. Al McInnis, Brian Leetch and Dennis Potvin did it one time each. Talk about different eras? The highest ranked season after 2000 came in at #40 when Brent Burns scored 83 points in 2018-19.

Bobby Orr deserves some credit because he was more than just an offensive player. He did play defense, he hit, could fight if he had to. Of course, its some of those type of things that helped shorten his career.

Lemieux is said to have saved the Penguin franchise, but Orr made a ho-hum Bruin franchise into a massive thing in Boston.  They say that ice rinks popped out of the ground in Boston during the 70s and it was because of Orr.

Not sure if I'd call him GOAT, but he should be in the top 3.

 

 

 

That’s a great point. In 1968, there were 4 rinks within 45 miles of my town in the Boston suburbs. Today there is 92, and many call them “the houses that Orr built”. As someone that moved here from the south, with no knowledge of hockey, it’s taken me quite a few years to get it. 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

did things no defenseman ever did before him and very few have done since.

Agree with the first part but disagree with the second. There are lots of offensive defensemen in the league now. Are they going to win any Art Ross Trophies? Probably not, but the league is much different today than it was 50 years ago.

1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

Consider this. The top ten scoring seasons in NHL history for a defenseman are owned entirely by two men. Orr and Paul Coffey. Coffey, you may know, played with both Gretzky and Lemieux. Only three other players have ever scored 100 points or more in a season. Al McInnis, Brian Leetch and Dennis Potvin did it one time each. Talk about different eras? The highest ranked season after 2000 came in at #40 when Brent Burns scored 83 points in 2018-19.

The eras absolutely matter. Players today overall are stronger, faster, better coached. There are systems in place for defending aggressive defensive pinches and the risk for failing is greater because the defenseman can’t just hustle back and overtake opposing players on a rush to get back in a defensive position.

Goaltending has improved significantly as well. Consider that Brian Leetch last scored 102 points in an era where a player could go on a breakaway and score from the top of the circle with a slapshot.

1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

Bobby Orr deserves some credit because he was more than just an offensive player. He did play defense, he hit, could fight if he had to. Of course, its some of those type of things that helped shorten his career.

He’s definitely one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, but I don’t know that’s enough to say he’s the GOAT. I mean an argument can be made that’s he’s not even the GOAT defenseman... some would say that’s Lidstrom.

[mcanadiens]

28 minutes ago, billchao said:

Agree with the first part but disagree with the second. There are lots of offensive defensemen in the league now. Are they going to win any Art Ross Trophies? Probably not, but the league is much different today than it was 50 years ago.

The eras absolutely matter. Players today overall are stronger, faster, better coached. There are systems in place for defending aggressive defensive pinches and the risk for failing is greater because the defenseman can’t just hustle back and overtake opposing players on a rush to get back in a defensive position.

Goaltending has improved significantly as well. Consider that Brian Leetch last scored 102 points in an era where a player could go on a breakaway and score from the top of the circle with a slapshot.

 

Ok. I get the era thing. The real GOAT is some kid in Kamloops that needs his diaper changed.

Just like the Woods v. Nicklaus thing. Athletes get better over time. It makes sense and I agree with it for the most part. ... It still makes the entire discussion of a GOAT a bit silly.

28 minutes ago, billchao said:

He’s definitely one of the best defensemen to ever play the game, but I don’t know that’s enough to say he’s the GOAT. I mean an argument can be made that’s he’s not even the GOAT defenseman... some would say that’s Lidstrom.

Lidstrom is one of the best ever, but I don't think I've ever heard someone make that claim before. 

Your very own era-adjusted scoring list doesn't seem to have Nick's name on it (not that pure points per game ought to be the only consideration).

 

 

 

[Bonvivant]

I'll throw my hat in the ring on this one. Scoring stats don't make you the goat, winning does. Hockey isn't like basketball where one player can just overpower the whole team (unless it's Datsyuk and he puts in on a string), so for me the scoring stat doesn't really tell the whole story. For me, it has to be an argument of Gretzky vs. Lidstrom. Both with tons of wins, good longevity, and no junk seasons. They played two very different roles, but they got the job done the best IMO.

Now if we are talking greatest hockey hair of all time, Lemieux is right up there with the best of em.

[mcanadiens]

5 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I'll throw my hat in the ring on this one. Scoring stats don't make you the goat, winning does.

Thanks @Bonvivant. It's settled. 

The GOAT is actually 11-time Stanley Cup winner, Henri Richard.

And let the Era-related comments begin! 🙂

Edited May 28, 2020 by mcanadiens

[billchao]

1 minute ago, mcanadiens said:

Ok. I get the era thing. The real GOAT is some kid in Kamloops that needs his diaper changed.

Just like the Woods v. Nicklaus thing. Athletes get better over time. It makes sense and I agree with it for the most part. ... It still makes the entire discussion of a GOAT a bit silly.

Yea, in theory. Athletes should continue to get better, the game keeps evolving, etc. That’s why we have the whole discussion of 15 > 19, and at some point in the future 12 might be greater than 15.

3 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Lidstrom is one of the best ever, but I don't think I've ever heard someone make that claim before.

I have. I’d make that argument, too, but don’t have the time to get into the advanced analytics stuff to make the case.

4 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Your very own era-adjusted scoring list doesn't seem to have Nick's name on it (not that pure points per game ought to be the only consideration).

For a defenseman, not even close. I hate how the Norris trophy generally defaults to the defenseman that scored the most points these days. The position is about a lot more than scoring points, which can be inflated from playing on the power play where a defenseman doesn’t necessarily have to play much defense.

[Bonvivant]

Just now, mcanadiens said:

Thanks @Bonvivant. It's settled. 

The GOAT is actually 11-time Stanley Cup winner, Henri Richard.

And let the Era-related comments begin! 🙂

The only Era-related comment needed for me is number of teams. 6-12 vs 24+ teams is a huge difference. Basically anything pre 20 teams doesn't really do it for me. Obviously skill has gone up over time, making it harder to be the best as the gap narrows, but the lack of teams in the old times means that you could basically just out coin-flip others to be the most winning.

[Vinsk]

Maybe not relevant but I want to add something here. I know nothing about hockey. Zero. I watched the miracle on ice and that’s literally the only hockey game I’ve ever watched from start to finish. 
Funny thing is I’ve heard Gretzky’s name and Lemieux throughout my life. The other guys you’ve all mentioned...never heard of them.

[mcanadiens]

26 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

The only Era-related comment needed for me is number of teams. 6-12 vs 24+ teams is a huge difference. Basically anything pre 20 teams doesn't really do it for me. Obviously skill has gone up over time, making it harder to be the best as the gap narrows, but the lack of teams in the old times means that you could basically just out coin-flip others to be the most winning.

It's exactly the lateness of the NHL expanding that makes this whole era thing even more confusing to deal with.

The overall talent pool for hockey really wasn't much better in the late 70s or early 80s than it was in the 50s and 60s when the Richards, Howes and Hulls were doing their thing. It's was still mostly Canadians. Only after American and European players started coming into the league in larger numbers did the overall talent pool significantly improve. 

Put it this way, I'm not real sure Gretzky had to deal with a lot tougher competition in the 1983-84 season against juggernauts like the Colorado Rockies, Kansas City Scouts, Hartford Whalers and New Jersey Devils (21 teams x 20 players = 420) than Howe, Hull and Richard had to deal with in the 60s against the old original six (120). Would you rather face the best 420 players in 1983-84 or the best 120 players in 1966? 

Also think about the level of familiarity. With that many head-to-head games, you aren't going to fool anyone after a while.

Then things change dramatically when eastern Europe opens up and their players start coming over in large numbers. A current team against anyone from prior to say 1990 would probably be a beat down.

5 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Maybe not relevant but I want to add something here. I know nothing about hockey. Zero. I watched the miracle on ice and that’s literally the only hockey game I’ve ever watched from start to finish. 
Funny thing is I’ve heard Gretzky’s name and Lemieux throughout my life. The other guys you’ve all mentioned...never heard of them.

And that's probably why Gretzky won't get replaced as everyone's perceived GOAT if not the genuine article. His fame, bolstered in a big way by his trade to the LA Kings), is world-wide. It would have been all over if the Kings had actually won a Cup  or two back then. 

Lemieux is known but not on the same level.  I'd guess that if you aren't of a particular age, a hockey fan or from Pittsburgh, you might not even know him.

Edited May 28, 2020 by mcanadiens

[billchao]

1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

It's exactly the lateness of the NHL expanding that makes this whole era thing even more confusing to deal with.

That’s why I don’t put a lot of stock into the number of cups the Canadiens have won.

Everything pre-expansion era is kind of like dead ball era baseball to me.

1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

Put it this way, I'm not real sure Gretzky had to deal with a lot tougher competition in the 1983-84 season against juggernauts like the Colorado Rockies, Kansas City Scouts, Hartford Whalers and New Jersey Devils

Three of those teams you listed are the same franchise, who did eventually go on to win three Stanley Cups in five appearances. 😉

[mcanadiens]

29 minutes ago, billchao said:

Three of those teams you listed are the same franchise, who did eventually go on to win three Stanley Cups in five appearances. 😉

Yes. That occurred to me later. In 83, they sucked. A Mickey Mouse Club, I believe. Just kind of rolled with it. Should of known the Jersey guy would call me out.  

29 minutes ago, billchao said:

Everything pre-expansion era is kind of like dead ball era baseball to me.

Probably you and a lot of other people.

I like reading about the historical stuff and the Original Six era was a big part of the NHL's past. Still there probably aren't a lot of people running around today that even saw an Original Six game in person.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by mcanadiens

[nicolas wieder]

Love Gretzky. Saw him many times. to do what he did at his size is amazing. Met him a couple of times after I saw him play. I imagined him so much bigger because of what he could do on the ice. He could get to any spot on the ice he wanted to and always seemed as if he had plenty of room. Amazing. 

But.... my heart goes to Mr Hockey. Longevity? played 32 seasons between the NHL and WHL. It took a superstar like Gretzky to come along before anyone could break his records. Gordie Howe. He would be my guy for too many reasons to name here.

[mcanadiens]

19 hours ago, nicolas wieder said:

Love Gretzky. Saw him many times. to do what he did at his size is amazing. Met him a couple of times after I saw him play. I imagined him so much bigger because of what he could do on the ice. He could get to any spot on the ice he wanted to and always seemed as if he had plenty of room. Amazing. 

But.... my heart goes to Mr Hockey. Longevity? played 32 seasons between the NHL and WHL. It took a superstar like Gretzky to come along before anyone could break his records. Gordie Howe. He would be my guy for too many reasons to name here.

The relationship that Gretzky had over the years with Gordie is a nice story. In his eyes anyway, Howe was the GOAT.

 

[iacas]

Gretzky has also said Mario was a better player.

[Darkfrog]

Not enough of a hockey fan to have an opinion on the GOAT, but I happened to live with a huge Penguins fan my last year in college, and when Mario returned to hockey in 2000, it was fun to watch the line with him and Jagr. 

[commishbob]

Gordie Howe was the best I’ve ever seen. He was when I first saw him in 1960 and nobody since has changed my mind.