Shot Zones, Club Selection and New Courses

[darthweasel]

So a bit of background; until about 4 years ago I played 5-10 times a year but relied on athletic ability and lack of knowledge to golf. Then I got fitted for clubs, took lessons, eliminated many bad habits (wildly open stance to avoid slice is now slightly closed as just one example), spent time on a local short course playing hundreds of 9 hole rounds (literally...98 one year, 86 the second, third year I lost count in the mid 80s) working on various clubs, studied the Phil Mickelson chipping video, etc. I feel much better about my game.  The last 2 years I have played in a local tournament grouping. Mostly my handicap has been 17 to 17.9 but recently I had a great run including two tournaments back, as I lined up a 3' birdie putt on 18 my partner mentioned if I made it we would win our flight and I simultaneously realized I would set my personal best with an 82. I made the putt. A week later I broke 80 for the first time. Obviously I am feeling very good about my game. For me I am playing very well, although the two most recent rounds were upper 80s...not unexpected.

Yesterday I played another tournament, now carrying a 14.1, lowest handicap I have ever had, and a course I had never played. It turned out to have fairly narrow fairways, tree lined but not continuous, there was space between the trees. Almost every hole was a dog leg, so much so that we started joking about the dogleg par 3s and the challenges that represented.

Now, for the most part I hit a baby fade. In principle, I know how to hit a draw, and in fact my 3h is pretty consistent in hitting a draw, but every other club tends towards a fade. So I get up on the first hole, which sets up well for a fade but disastrous for a slice (driving range right of fairway is OB). Plenty of room to miss left. I pick a target line 290 out on the left side...and hit a big pull. Second hole, I hit a big pull. Third hole...big pull. There is a pattern here.

As the day goes on I am hitting pulls 4 out of 5 tee shots but expecting to hit the fade that in a typical round I hit 90% of the time.

This was a best ball tournament and my partner was...lets call it struggling. I was hitting a very atypical shot for me on an unfamiliar course. My misses were nowhere near expected and yet, as I commented on hole 10, I was feeling pressure because of how narrow the fairways were.

So the strategic question would be what should my approach be towards a best possible score? A typical hole might be 220 to carry the corner. My 3h has a 212 yard average, my 3w is so wildly consistent that it is all but unplayable and because I carry 4 wedges, I don't have anything in between. My 6i averaged 182 and is the next club down I feel comfortable with (my 5I has developed a 50 yard slice and my 4i I tend to chunk 40 yards). So if I hit say...the 6i, I then have to ship to the corner and will be leaving myself maybe 160 or 170 yards in. I do not hit the green from that distance. So it would be tee shot, chip, close to green, on in 4 and 2-putt...double bogey. That did not seem to make sense to me. And the first time I pulled my 3w I did about as you would expect...I chunked it 8 yards. So it is not like I feel an advantage pulling that out.

 

What is the correct strategy when I anticipate a fade, consistently pull and have no correct club? I am really working on improving my course management and this one is sticking for me.

 

(For what it is worth, on the day, never feeling like I was hitting it well, I managed an 88 which netted out to a 75...but I really feel like I left several shots out there in decision making moreso than in execution. My execution was what it was...but my decision making could have been better?)

[klineka]

8 minutes ago, darthweasel said:

 

Now, for the most part I hit a baby fade. In principle, I know how to hit a draw, and in fact my 3h is pretty consistent in hitting a draw, but every other club tends towards a fade. So I get up on the first hole, which sets up well for a fade but disastrous for a slice (driving range right of fairway is OB). Plenty of room to miss left. I pick a target line 290 out on the left side...and hit a big pull. Second hole, I hit a big pull. Third hole...big pull. There is a pattern here.

What's the issue? If there was plenty of room to miss left and you pulled it, shouldn't you have been fine?

It's really difficult to say what the correct course management decision is without knowing how wide the holes are, how long the holes are, without seeing at least an overhead picture of them, etc. Can you post some pictures of the holes you are talking about, or at least the course name and what tees you were playing from?

8 minutes ago, darthweasel said:

What is the correct strategy when I anticipate a fade, consistently pull and have no correct club? 

Play for the pull? Especially since it was happening on 80% of your tee shots that day. 

The difference between a pull and a baby fade is likely only a couple degrees of face angle at impact with probably a similar club path, so for whatever reason that day your club face was likely just a bit more closed than it usually is. Once it became a pattern for that day, you have to be able to adjust your shot zone to match what you are experiencing that day/in the moment.

[billchao]

Your Game Plan is based on what you’re actually doing that day and not what you think you should be doing. If you’re consistently hitting pulls, after three or four holes you should have adjusted your aim farther right.

[darthweasel]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

What's the issue? If there was plenty of room to miss left and you pulled it, shouldn't you have been fine?

 

imprecise verbiage on my part. Plenty of room in that it would be in play, not out of bounds...but virtually guaranteed to hit a tree. Per golf pad, my driver average this year going into the round was 252...(coming out 249 if that tells you anything on how I hit it that day) I got 211 out of my first tee shot, largely because I almost delimbed a tree with that scud missile. It left me a chip out to center of fairway or a high risk, keep it low towards the green option. Second hole, hit a tree with ye olde tee shot...there was room on almost every hole, but that room was seriously inhibited by the frequent tree action. Basically if you missed the fairway you were more than likely going to hit a tree. every hole.

57 minutes ago, billchao said:

Your Game Plan is based on what you’re actually doing that day and not what you think you should be doing. If you’re consistently hitting pulls, after three or four holes you should have adjusted your aim farther right.

would you stick with specific club and alter direction or just the direction? Also, how much, direction wise , of an adjustment, is it something you do incrementally or larger chunk?

[billchao]

50 minutes ago, darthweasel said:

would you stick with specific club and alter direction or just the direction? Also, how much, direction wise , of an adjustment, is it something you do incrementally or larger chunk?

That’s kind of hard to generalize. It really depends on how you’re hitting the ball that day.

[gbogey]

I won't repeat what the others said but the question I would ask is "did you hit driver on every hole?"  Tree lined courses tend to be tighter and less forgiving (obviously), but often they are also shorter.  There were probably several holes where a +200 yard hybrid would have put you in good position.

My home course in NJ, @billchao knows which one, was short but tree lined for the first 16 holes.  Unless you were having a great day, you were going to hit at least 1-2 drives per round into the trees.  There were a couple of holes where driver was a stupid play for most golfers.  I would hit 4-6 FW/hybrids off the tee per round because I figured out over time that was my best option to make par.  However, some of this will depend on your game and what your strengths are.

[klineka]

@darthweasel What course did you play and what tees did you play from?

[darthweasel]

2 hours ago, klineka said:

@darthweasel What course did you play and what tees did you play from?

Riverside in Portland, OR. The tees were called white but they had them closer to the Blues. They like to back them up at their tournaments. Funny part is both myself and my partner felt like we played horribly but shot net 73 and 75 respectively. That was despite hitting a tree or more every hole, on one hole he hit four chunks after tee shot and before reaching green...

 

I am really working on developing my strategy. I like playing new courses and this tournament group plays several at otherwise private courses I would never get on...I was blessed to be able to Play Pumpkin Ridge Witch Hollow for example. But sometimes I get in my own way. Only recently have I reached a point where I stand over the ball thinking it will land relatively close to where I plan. Historically I have been a "hit and hope" guy. Now I go in with a plan and assume I will execute and, when I fail to, find the most stress free get out of trouble option to keep my score down. And it has helped.

 

But I do feel like a real weakness was exposed on this day. The only club I had that would clear corners was my driver and it was going the exact opposite direction I expected it to. I should have adjusted my aim but was afraid of turning it into my historical slice as opposed to a fade I could work with. As a result, I hit a LOT of trees, lot of second shots were punches. Fortunately, my wedges, chipping and putting kept my score reasonable. On triple, one double, everything else par or bogey and at my level that is pretty respectable. Correcting the triple and double will help a lot. But figuring out how to develop a correct plan is a major part of my improvement strategy for sure.

[gbogey]

2 hours ago, darthweasel said:

The only club I had that would clear corners was my driver and it was going the exact opposite direction I expected it to.

So I hate to over generalize, but taking a quick glance at the scorecard / GPS flyover, there appears to be 6-7 holes where a reliable 210 yard shot puts you in good position, so no need to hit driver there if you thought the course was tight or if you were wilder than usual that day.  That doesn't include the par 5's, which depending on how tight they were and whether you could reach in two, you might also avoid driver.  So I guess what I'm saying is that on a tight, tree lined course ditch the driver unless the risk / reward is worth it.

Also you mention trying to clear corners.  My guess is that the course opened up further out than you think.  Or, if you were trying to hit around the dog legs to get closer to the hole, my bet is that is generally a bad idea except for really advanced golfers.  Generally, unless you are risking hitting through a fairway, you'd likely be better off just hitting your stock driver down the fairway without cutting the corner.  Again, risk /reward of going around a dog leg is usually poor in my experience.

[criley4way]

Clearing a corner should be evaluated as a BIG risk/reward. What do you really gain vs how well do you need to hit the shot.

 

[darthweasel]

2 hours ago, gbogey said:

So I hate to over generalize, but taking a quick glance at the scorecard / GPS flyover, there appears to be 6-7 holes where a reliable 210 yard shot puts you in good position, so no need to hit driver there if you thought the course was tight or if you were wilder than usual that day.  That doesn't include the par 5's, which depending on how tight they were and whether you could reach in two, you might also avoid driver.  So I guess what I'm saying is that on a tight, tree lined course ditch the driver unless the risk / reward is worth it.

Also you mention trying to clear corners.  My guess is that the course opened up further out than you think.  Or, if you were trying to hit around the dog legs to get closer to the hole, my bet is that is generally a bad idea except for really advanced golfers.  Generally, unless you are risking hitting through a fairway, you'd likely be better off just hitting your stock driver down the fairway without cutting the corner.  Again, risk /reward of going around a dog leg is usually poor in my experience.

I was able to use my 3h on a couple holes that bent left. I likely have some hitch in my swing because that club, and that one only, draws. I tried on one hole to intentionally draw a 6i...I closed the stance, closed clubface to the stance, swung to right field...clearly I did one of those wrong because by draw I clearly meant power fade...anyhow on most of them that draw would have been in the trees due to the dogleg.

 

Also, and this is likely me not being as clear as I should, when I say "clear the corner" I mean hitting it far enough to allow me a clear shot at the green, not cutting the corner. I used to try some corner cutting in my younger years but these days I am generally trying to stay well clear of as much trouble as possible. The only time I ever try to cut a dogleg these days is when playing a scramble and one of my partners has already put one where I would if I were playing my own ball. I am a firm believer you are very correct...cutting doglegs is a shot-causing hole I don't want to go down.

Funny part is, when I looked at the course tour, my plan was to take my 180 yard club, my conform club as it were, off virtually every tee and a long iron in, but when on the course, they had the boxes moved back and when I lasered the trees ye olde 6i would have not made the corner and left me with a chip around the corner.

I am seeing more and more that a huge part of my problem is the gap between 180 and 250. Until recently I did not play many courses that required a shot in those distances. I think I need to spend some serious time dialing in  5i and 4i to allow me a tee club selection that will keep me out of trouble in those distances.

 

Reading peoples responses has been helpful and is much appreciated.

[gjunkie57]

Hopefully @iacas will comment. My understanding of shot zones is they are based on your normal shot outcomes.  The question you are asking seems to be, what to do when your shot outcomes are abnormal.  
I am dealing with this now as I am in the midst of a swing change. So I am hitting shorter clubs to keep it in play.  My driver is not dialed in yet.  Cannot attack when your shot outcome is uncertain. 

[darthweasel]

41 minutes ago, criley4way said:

Clearing a corner should be evaluated as a BIG risk/reward. What do you really gain vs how well do you need to hit the shot.

 

 

I was imprecise. By clearing the corner I meant hitting it far enough to leave me a clear shot at the green, not cutting the corner. I am nowhere near skilled enough to attempt the high risk, high reward shot and for me, corner cutting is high risk. One hole at my current "home" course plays to about 560 yards and I routinely tee off with an 8i because the trees guarding the 90 degree dogleg right take that to get past them and I am not willing to risk going over or around them.  I concur wholeheartedly that cutting corners is bad news for me

[billchao]

20 minutes ago, gjunkie57 said:

My understanding of shot zones is they are based on your normal shot outcomes.  The question you are asking seems to be, what to do when your shot outcomes are abnormal.

You GamePlan based on how you're hitting the ball that day. If the OP is consistently hitting pulls during a round, the pull needs to be accounted for, even if it isn't a normal miss.

21 minutes ago, gjunkie57 said:

I am dealing with this now as I am in the midst of a swing change.

You're probably going to have to remap your Shot Zones once your swing changes are more settled.

[ShawnSum]

On 6/9/2020 at 3:02 PM, darthweasel said:

So the strategic question would be what should my approach be towards a best possible score? A typical hole might be 220 to carry the corner. My 3h has a 212 yard average, my 3w is so wildly consistent that it is all but unplayable and because I carry 4 wedges, I don't have anything in between. My 6i averaged 182 and is the next club down I feel comfortable with (my 5I has developed a 50 yard slice and my 4i I tend to chunk 40 yards). So if I hit say...the 6i, I then have to ship to the corner and will be leaving myself maybe 160 or 170 yards in. I do not hit the green from that distance. So it would be tee shot, chip, close to green, on in 4 and 2-putt...double bogey. That did not seem to make sense to me. And the first time I pulled my 3w I did about as you would expect...I chunked it 8 yards. So it is not like I feel an advantage pulling that out.

I read your entire post and this part sticks out the most to me. You've got a LOT of negative thoughts going on here across several different clubs that are in your bag that seem to be useless with your current track of thinking. I realize that people have certain clubs they may not be great with but you've gotta practice them enough to get to a point where it's actually a tool you can use out there on the course!

[darthweasel]

21 hours ago, ShawnSum said:

I read your entire post and this part sticks out the most to me. You've got a LOT of negative thoughts going on here across several different clubs that are in your bag that seem to be useless with your current track of thinking. I realize that people have certain clubs they may not be great with but you've gotta practice them enough to get to a point where it's actually a tool you can use out there on the course!

I am seriously considering pulling the 4i, 5i and 3w out of the bag entirely for that exact reason. I have dedicated sessions both of block practice and more nuanced "play a course in my head" and to date have not made the desired progress so they are essentially dead weight in my bag. Only reason I have not pulled them is I don't have clubs to replace them with but you are definitely correct, as is they are not clubs I am competent with.

[ShawnSum]

30 minutes ago, darthweasel said:

I am seriously considering pulling the 4i, 5i and 3w out of the bag entirely for that exact reason. I have dedicated sessions both of block practice and more nuanced "play a course in my head" and to date have not made the desired progress so they are essentially dead weight in my bag. Only reason I have not pulled them is I don't have clubs to replace them with but you are definitely correct, as is they are not clubs I am competent with.

Have you had a lesson recently? Might be worth booking one to figure those clubs out.

[darthweasel]

actually had a fascinating revelation on my way home last night. Had another round where I was really scuffling. Having hard time getting off tee as consistently as I would like, it was much shorter and directionally challenged than when I was playing super well. But about halfway through the round I made a couple realizations:

1) an unrequested bit of advice from a self-professed "self taught, but I used to be a teaching pro" guy had screwed up my grip. I undid that and my long clubs got better.

2) the grip had smurfed up by tempo, I got that back on track and actually was confident enough to hit my 4i twice...which is twice more than the previous 5 rounds combined. Decent results.

 

And ultimately I realized the biggest flaw in my game recently is not necessarily the pulls that have infected it...is the expectations. I shot an 88. Nothing spectacular, and very steady...44-44. A month ago when playing poorly it would have been between a 95 and a 105. But now a "poor" round is an 88...and I was upset with myself for the first nine holes for how I was playing.

 

I am actually playing well (for me), it is my expectations that are out of line. I read through most of the "where to spend your practice time" thread (until my internet crashed...but plan to go back and read it) and intend to spend a good deal of time working on minimizing my miss off the tee, I think that will help a lot. And advice in this thread on getting comfortable with every club...heard, and will be followed.