Ryan Palmer Kicks Divot at TOC, Absolved of 11.3 Breach

[StuM]

Can anybody find a video of the 9th hole where Ryan Palmer kicked the divot? I can find many articles that indicate he was absolved if the violation but would like to see it for myself.

Here is link to story, but no video.

Ryan Palmer absolved of potential Rules violation, shares 54-hole lead at ToC

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Ryan Palmer is tied atop the leaderboard after 54 holes but not without a rules controversy.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by StuM
Added link

[iacas]

I hate this stuff:

Quote

The moment in question happened at the par-5 ninth hole, where Palmer was just short of the green in two before flubbing his pitch shot. As the ball began rolling back towards him, Palmer walked towards the ball and kicked a divot before his ball came to a stop. Mutch spoke with Palmer to discuss a possible violation of Rule 11-3: “While a ball is in motion, you must not deliberately alter physical conditions or lift or move a loose impediment or movable obstruction to affect where the ball might come to rest.”

After a discussion with Palmer, who went on to make a par on the hole, Mutch determined that there was no intent and so Palmer’s 64 stands.

First, they call it 11-3. There is no 11-3. They meant 11.3.

Second, the "deliberate" action here used to not care whether you intended to alter the conditions, it was whether you intentionally kicked the divot or whatever. It used to mean that if you were just walking around and you stepped on or kicked something accidentally, that's not an intentional kicking motion. Kinda like how hockey goals are judged.

If he deliberately kicked the divot, and didn't just accidentally move it, and there was a chance his ball was going to go in that area, that should be a penalty. This is one of the changes to the Rules (I think) that I don't like, because the wording DOES add "intent" to it.

The examples in the interpretations say:

Quote

• The player’s ball lies in the general area at the bottom of a slope. The player makes a stroke and, while the ball is rolling back down the slope, the player presses down a raised piece of turf for the purpose of preventing the ball from coming to rest in a bad lie.
• The player believes a rake lying on the ground may stop or deflect another player’s ball in motion, so the player lifts the rake.

I preferred the old rules, where intent didn't matter here. If you did this in the area where there was a chance the ball was going to roll to (or whatever), then you could be penalized. Period.

Now, you could just lie and say "oh, no, I was just mad and so I kicked the divot out of anger. It wasn't to alter the conditions or the area."

I don't like that the Rules added "intent" to places where they don't belong, IMO. There are less "intent" based rules now than pre-2019, I think, but this is one of them.

@Rulesman, what's your take here?

11.3 is here: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=11&subrulenum=3

P.S. All they'd have to do is change one word: "When a ball is in motion, a player must not deliberately take any of these actions to affect where that ball (whether the player’s own ball or another player’s ball) might come to rest:" Change that "to" to "that".

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I preferred the old rules, where intent didn't matter here. If you did this in the area where there was a chance the ball was going to roll to (or whatever), then you could be penalized. Period.

I agree. Same situation when Hideki clearly stomped down his divot as his ball was rolling back to him. ‘ oh I was just fixing my divot hole as usual.’ Well...it shouldn’t be allowed to do while the ball is in motion and potentially returning to the area.

[DeadMan]

I would really like to see the video. I feel like if there’s a chance that your action could affect the ball or your next stroke, it should be a penalty. I agree with @iacas that intent shouldn’t matter in this situation. 

[Whiner]

1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

I would really like to see the video. I feel like if there’s a chance that your action could affect the ball or your next stroke, it should be a penalty. I agree with @iacas that intent shouldn’t matter in this situation. 

Pre 2019 the classic example, shown at Rules School, was a player at Pebble repairing or replacing when he couldn't see the ball returning from his chip.  Clearly no intent there!

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

If he deliberately kicked the divot, ...... This is one of the changes to the Rules (I think) that I don't like, because the wording DOES add "intent" to it.

@Rulesman , what's your take here?

 

IMO the 'intent' is related to the potential outcome rather than the action itself.

I'm sure he intended to knock the divot out of the way but did he do it with the intention of taking it out of the possible path of the still moving ball. I wasn't the referee who interviewed him but am happy to go with the man who was.

However, I would like to see the RBs make it clearer. Although the Interpretation does go some way.

The player’s ball lies in the general area at the bottom of a slope. The player makes a strokeStroke: The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.(...Continued) and, while the ball is rolling back down the slope, the player presses down a raised piece of turf for the purpose of preventing the ball from coming to rest in a bad lie.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Rulesman

[burr]

If you have seen tape, you would realize that it is a non-issue in this case.  Palmer was well back from the path of the ball and came upon a divot that a previous player did not attend to and simply kicked it out of HIS path of travel, not the ball, much like one might swat a pine cone out of the fairway when passing.  No chance of this rule violation.

IMO< and Palmers (when asked by the official after the round), the divot had no play in this situation so there was no call for a rules question.  Palmer had to be told what to look at during his viewing of the question - he did not know what he was looking for.

Can't believe I'm the only one that's seen it.

 

 

So in this situation at the club on a Sat morning, what do you think would happen?

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by burr

[Divot Master]

I saw the live telecast and the replay. He definitely altered his stride to clip the divot and pulverize it, while the ball was still moving in the general direction of the divot and only about 5 feet away. IMHO a penalty old rule or new. I thought he was also rather arrogant about it in the interview afterwards. My question is, does this player have any prior rules sketchiness, or is this a first offense?

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

IMO the 'intent' is related to the potential outcome rather than the action itself.

That’s what I said, yeah.

But prior to 2019, the intent was whether you changed the conditions under 23-1.

Quote

When a ball is in motion, a loose impediment that might influence the movement of the ball must not be removed.

IIRC if you were just walking and you accidentally kicked a divot you might have been fine in 2018. But now you can just say “oh, no, I was just frustrated” and you’re fine.

Camilo Villegas at this same event was DQed because he effectively signed an incorrect scorecard after doing a similar thing.

Villegas disqualified from Tournament of Champions | CBC Sports

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The Tournament of Champions in Kapalua, Hawaii, lost another star player Friday when Camilo Villegas was disqualified for a rules violation that a television viewer called in after the opening round.

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

for the purpose of preventing the ball from coming to rest in a bad lie.

Right, so if you give them another reason, you’re fine.

I wish it was just “did you do something that altered the conditions while the ball was still possibly (loosely interpreted) going to come into the area.

More like the old rules.

3 hours ago, burr said:

If you have seen tape, you would realize that it is a non-issue in this case.  Palmer was well back from the path of the ball and came upon a divot that a previous player did not attend to and simply kicked it out of HIS path of travel, not the ball, much like one might swat a pine cone out of the fairway when passing.  No chance of this rule violation.

You seem to be the only one saying this.

If the divot was anywhere in the area of where his ball might go, it’s very much something that could be a rules violation.

3 hours ago, burr said:

IMO< and Palmers (when asked by the official after the round), the divot had no play in this situation so there was no call for a rules question.

The PGA Tour doesn’t call players in for possible rules violations when there’s “no call” for it.

3 hours ago, burr said:

Palmer had to be told what to look at during his viewing of the question - he did not know what he was looking for.

PGA Tour players don’t know the Rules very well, often.

3 hours ago, burr said:

So in this situation at the club on a Sat morning, what do you think would happen?

What’s the relevance here? It would depend heavily on who was playing, and what they knew of the Rules.

56 minutes ago, Divot Master said:

I saw the live telecast and the replay. He definitely altered his stride to clip the divot and pulverize it, while the ball was still moving in the general direction of the divot and only about 5 feet away.

See, @burr, you’re not the only one to have seen it. 🙂

56 minutes ago, Divot Master said:

IMHO a penalty old rule or new. I thought he was also rather arrogant about it in the interview afterwards. My question is, does this player have any prior rules sketchiness, or is this a first offense?

Well, Marshall, it doesn’t count as an “offense” since he didn’t breach the rules. 😛 

But yeah, I think it’s one of the rules changes I don’t like. It’s one of the times they added intent back to the Rules. I don’t like that. Judge based on what happens, not what people were thinking.

There are a few Rules where intent can matter, but they should be limited to only instances where it really matters. Like the definition for a stroke.

[jmanbooyaa]

By adding the word intent the rules are now up to the ethics of the player to i force. Why have a rules official?

[mcanadiens]

3 hours ago, burr said:

Can't believe I'm the only one that's seen it.

Saw a replay of it this morning and I agree with you. I didn't think there was any chance of that ball ending up near that divot when he kicked it.

 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, jmanbooyaa said:

By adding the word intent the rules are now up to the ethics of the player to i force. Why have a rules official?

Plenty of rules don’t have intent and plenty of players still need help.

7 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Saw a replay of it this morning and I agree with you. I didn't think there was any chance of that ball ending up near that divot when he kicked it.

Someone going to post the video?

This is close enough and if the ball is rolling definitely close enough.

From here:

 

Ryan Palmer puzzled by rules inquiry at Tournament of Champions

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Ryan Palmer was shocked when a PGA Tour rules official approached him about a possible rules...

Hmmmmmm.

[mcanadiens]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

Someone going to post the video?

Weird. Swear I saw this on TV this morning, but not finding the clip at all right now online.

From what I recall seeing that ball would have needed to take a hard right turn to get to that divot. Guess I'd like to see it again since there seems to be so much question about it.

[jmanbooyaa]

It has been on Golf Central a few times today. They show his post 3rd round interview with his comments while it plays out on video.  

[Missouri Swede]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Someone going to post the video?

Here:

0:16: "Oh"

Edited January 10, 2021 by Missouri Swede

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Here:

 

Thank you.

Yeah, I’d have penalized him… under the old rules. But since 2019 says you have to see what his purpose or intent was, you can’t really.

But yeah, when he turned away from the ball then it’s possible the ball would roll into that area. I think he’d have been penalized just like Camilo Villegas was.

[jmanbooyaa]

Under the old rule you would have to I would think.  But those rules don’t apply anymore. 

[mcanadiens]

Seeing it again confirms it in my opinion.

There was no way in the world that ball was going to be anywhere near that divot when Palmer kicked it.