Get Used to Playing With Golfers Who Get on Your Nerves, or Not?

[DaveP043]

On 3/7/2021 at 6:29 PM, JuliWooli said:

I disagree. I am not saying that lower handicappers are saints but most of them have earned their stripes. Ask @HoganApexFanwho was a marine for over 20 years, he'll back me up.

There are also high handicappers who know their place when they are playing out of their league. I appreciate a little cap doffing but, in these cases, I would rather avoid such adulation.

Lower handicappers have earned nothing more than a place on the golf course, exactly the same as higher handicappers.  And I have exactly the same tolerance for misbehavior from good players that I have for lesser players.  Nobody has earned the right to act poorly on the course, no matter how well they play.

And again, high handicappers should accept that their "place" is right next to me or any other lower handicapper on the course, trying our best to play well, and treating one another and the course with respect.  

[Zippo]

35 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Lower handicappers have earned nothing more than a place on the golf course, exactly the same as higher handicappers.  And I have exactly the same tolerance for misbehavior from good players that I have for lesser players.  Nobody has earned the right to act poorly on the course, no matter how well they play.

And again, high handicappers should accept that their "place" is right next to me or any other lower handicapper on the course, trying our best to play well, and treating one another and the course with respect.  

Very well put, @DaveP043. As a high handicapper I can assure you that I also fix my divots and pitch marks and that my speed of play does not hold up anyone else on the course - high or low. I spend little time looking for wayward balls and I know the meaning of "ready golf". I am conscious of other player's line on the green and where I stand when they're swinging on the tee. I also try to mute my "Oh, WOW!" when a low handicapper is driving and their beer tastes just as good as mine.  🙂

[JuliWooli]

1 hour ago, dagolfer18 said:

That’s about the only time I’ve ever been paired with a jerk.

My tolerance level is at best a three and, by the sound of it, yours is nearer to ten. Am I the only golfer on TST who is well below five on a scale from one to ten or am I perhaps the most honest. BTW I am fairly popular in real life. Probably because I'm gorgeous.

[JuliWooli]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Lower handicappers have earned nothing more than a place on the golf course, exactly the same as higher handicappers.  And I have exactly the same tolerance for misbehavior from good players that I have for lesser players.  Nobody has earned the right to act poorly on the course, no matter how well they play.

And again, high handicappers should accept that their "place" is right next to me or any other lower handicapper on the course, trying our best to play well, and treating one another and the course with respect.  

I totally agree but you must admit lower handicappers tend to have better etiquette.

Of course there are exceptions but please don't tell me when you look at the start list that you don't make judgements depending on the quality of the player. If I'm put out with 3 players of 18 or over, which happens all too often, I feel like going home. Normally my initial dread realises itself, on the course, more often than not. 

[JuliWooli]

41 minutes ago, Zippo said:

Very well put, @DaveP043. As a high handicapper I can assure you that I also fix my divots and pitch marks and that my speed of play does not hold up anyone else on the course - high or low. I spend little time looking for wayward balls and I know the meaning of "ready golf". I am conscious of other player's line on the green and where I stand when they're swinging on the tee. I also try to mute my "Oh, WOW!" when a low handicapper is driving and their beer tastes just as good as mine.  🙂

I'll give you that @Zippo and I've already said there are exceptions on both sides.

22 handicap you say.

Sir, you're a God-damn liar!

[IowaGreg]

When along with others,  I try to be the kind of person I wouldn't mind golfing with..........

 

 

[DaveP043]

26 minutes ago, JuliWooli said:

I totally agree but you must admit lower handicappers tend to have better etiquette.

I admit nothing of the sort, at least at my club.  Understanding of appropriate etiquette doesn't seem to be linked in any way to handicap level, outside of the occasional beginner.  And really, beginners are often the most accepting of advice surrounding etiquette.  Low handicappers, who tend to have more experience, are generally strongly set in their ways, even when their ways are wrong.  Of course there are a few individuals who I prefer not to be paired with, but their handicaps run the gamut.

[JuliWooli]

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Of course there are a few individuals who I prefer not to be paired with, but their handicaps run the gamut.

That's it, I'm coming to America!

[Pretzel]

54 minutes ago, JuliWooli said:

Of course there are exceptions but please don't tell me when you look at the start list that you don't make judgements depending on the quality of the player.

I can honestly say I don't, because I make my judgements based on things other than playing ability. Whether I enjoy playing with somebody or not is a matter of their pace of play, and general etiquette rather than golf-specific items, but I know the individual priority items varies from player to player. I've played in some hundreds of tournaments in the last 12 years or so since I began playing competitively, and I can honestly say there are equal numbers of high handicappers and low handicappers that I've disliked playing with.

Golf etiquette is easy to teach just by mentioning it to the person, "Hey, would you mind moving off my line when I'm hitting? It can be distracting for a lot of people, myself included." Somebody with good general etiquette will hear that and then avoid standing on the line of people who are currently hitting, somebody with bad general etiquette will simply not care. This is more of a personality/politeness thing, and honestly in my experience the vast majority of the time the problem is just that the person didn't know any better because others just silently judged instead of mentioning anything to them. For me this isn't a big deal either way because I'm not picky, I'm focused on my shot and people can talk, move, or stand wherever without it bothering me much. I'll give them the tip so they can remember in the future, and if they're a generally agreeable or polite person they take it into consideration. If they're the type of person who is rude enough to continue doing something that somebody says is bothering them, then they're not going to be a personality type I enjoy spending 4 hours with anyways - golf course or no golf course. This general etiquette thing includes stuff like raging or swearing loudly, getting absolutely wasted (alcohol or weed, in Colorado at least), and just not being a jerk because none of those things are good general etiquette regardless of whether you're on the course or not.

The only golf etiquette thing that's really a big deal to me is the pace of play, which is why I singled it out earlier. I'm a pretty fast player - last night I walked 9 holes in 1:20 while playing two balls and waiting on the last two teeboxes for the landing area to clear. I've played with 30 handicappers who were faster than me, and I've played with plus handicappers who couldn't finish a full round solo in under 5 hours. In this case I've actually found, among golfers who play in tournaments, that high handicappers are faster than low handicappers. They aren't spending as much time analyzing every putt or taking multiple practice swings to get everything just right, and they're more likely to want to avoid holding the group up because they know they're going to be taking more swings. High handicap (or no handicap) casual golfers who just play to hang out with their buddies on the weekend might be slower than most low handicap golfers, but of the population that cares enough about golf to play in tournaments it's the low handicappers who play slower on average. 

Even then, with these two items, it all comes down to the individual I'm playing with because playing ability is not a concrete indicator of anything. I've played with rude and slow people with both high and low handicaps, and I've played with fast and polite people with both high and low handicaps. The only thing a handicap tells me is how good at golf someone is, not whether they are a person I would be fine spending 4 hours with while doing something I enjoy. Ultimately that's what you're doing, - spending 4 hours in close proximity with someone and the overlap is massive between disagreeable playing partners and people you wouldn't want to hang out with outside of golf. If someone is generally polite and doesn't play slowly I'll enjoy playing with them, even if we have different interests/personalities or there's no conversation going. It's usually pretty clear by one or two holes into the round whether a playing partner is good or bad, no need to try and jump the gun and color your perception with a preconceived notion based off handicap.

It's a matter of mutual respect for the other people in your group and the other groups on the course - if that exists I'll enjoy playing with you and if it doesn't then I would rather not be paired together again. It doesn't matter how well or poorly you play, if you prefer conversation or silence, to me it just matters if you're a generally decent person or not.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Pretzel

[JuliWooli]

On 2/22/2021 at 11:48 AM, JuliWooli said:

I have a select group who I will happily play with but unfortunately for tournament play I don't have that choice. 

I don't consider myself over fussy but slow play and bad etiquette really get on my nerves. Unfortunately our small club likes to mix the handicaps in too many tournaments for my liking and I have to play too often with golfers I would normally not/never play with. 

For a while, I thought this was just part of the game and bit bullet and went through many miserable rounds. However, my skill levels and enjoyment of the game suffered.

I now only play in tournaments where the groups are sent out related to handicap but that leaves me playing in a fraction of the tournament calendar.

Am I alone?

@Pretzel at the beginning of this thread, I strongly suggest that the better the player, then normally etiquette and speed of play are better. It has definitely been my experience.

Is it not the higher handicappers who tend to take two or more practise swings on every shot thus making them slower? I rarely see a single digit player taking any. To add insult to injury they are all carrying range finders these days when they dial in a stock 8 or 9 iron once a fortnight.

Do they not tend to lose more balls thus spending a lot more time looking for them.

Then there's the discussion on a few holes whether they had a 6, 7 or 8 which can lead to confusion and slow play. We have to explain, "You chipped on for four and three putted, that's a seven." They often reply, "No, I chipped on for three." And then you have to recall the three shots they had before chipping on. Jesus Christ! And I have to get geared up for my next tee shot.

I haven't even touched on etiquette yet. I repeat once again.

"Am I alone?"

[boogielicious]

4 minutes ago, JuliWooli said:

I rarely see a single digit player taking any.

Bryson DeChambeau takes about 6 practice swings. So do most of the other PGA, LPGA, and other professional tours. They are well below single digit. I’ve played with scratch players who take a couple and 25 handicap players like my wife and other woman friends who take none. You are making generalizations. Maybe this is what you see in Europe, but it doesn’t match with what we see here in the US.

[JuliWooli]

18 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Bryson DeChambeau takes about 6 practice swings. So do most of the other PGA, LPGA, and other professional tours. They are well below single digit. I’ve played with scratch players who take a couple and 25 handicap players like my wife and other woman friends who take none. You are making generalizations. Maybe this is what you see in Europe, but it doesn’t match with what we see here in the US.

Firstly, Bryson is an undeniable Adonis and I will here no evil words directed towards him. Plus he's almost as nice as @Double Mocha Man

Most tour players take soft airy practise swings away from the ball, no divots and no power. Waggles are ok.

As I said before, I'm sure non-golfers think high handicappers have missed the ball when they take their practise swings, with full pre shot routine, so close to the ball.

BTW maybe your wife should start taking practise swings! 

[Pretzel]

4 minutes ago, JuliWooli said:

@Pretzel at the beginning of this thread, I strongly suggest that the better the player, then normally etiquette and speed of play are better. It has definitely been my experience.

Is it not the higher handicappers who tend to take two or more practise swings on every shot thus making them slower? I rarely see a single digit player taking any. To add insult to injury they are all carrying range finders these days when they dial in a stock 8 or 9 iron once a fortnight.

Do they not tend to lose more balls thus spending a lot more time looking for them.

Then there's the discussion on a few holes whether they had a 6, 7 or 8 which can lead to confusion and slow play. We have to explain, "You chipped on for four and three putted, that's a seven." They often reply, "No, I chipped on for three." And then you have to recall the three shots they had before chipping on. Jesus Christ! And I have to get geared up for my next tee shot.

I haven't even touched on etiquette yet. I repeat once again.

"Am I alone?"

In general, I would say that my experience is different from yours at least if we're specifically talking about golfers in tournaments. That said, I'm also a pretty laid-back person in terms of what bothers me vs what doesn't. In summary, my experience is that etiquette and pace of play are not correlated with a playing partner's handicap in a tournament environment.

I've got my personal experiences organized by specific topic below.

Practice Swings

I've definitely seen play slowed due to practice swings a lot more from low handicap golfers (low cap, LC) than high handicap golfers (high cap, HC). HC golfers tend to use practice swings more to stay loose and just give them a little confidence from a "good" practice swing. LC golfers tend to be looking for a very specific feeling with their practice swing to ingrain and repeat in the shot, especially if they're hitting a shot different from "standard", which means more practice swings in total. LC golfers also tend to hit more "non-standard" shots during a round based on what the situation at hand calls for, because they have a wider variety of shots they can hit. For a wedge from the fairway a LC golfer might want a certain trajectory or amount of spin on the shot, with a specific feeling to accomplish that, while an HC golfer still is just wanting to make solid contact and hopefully hit the green.

I've never seen anyone in a tournament do a full routine, with a divot and full power swing, for a practice swing - brush the grass at most for everyone I've encountered and usually at reduced power. I've also noticed LC golfers are more likely to wait until it's "their turn" to start their more numerous practice swings, possibly going too far with golf etiquette trying to completely avoid any possible distraction for other golfers even if the LC golfer themselves is out of the way and the swings aren't making noise.

Lost Balls

Pretty sure this is entirely a Europe vs U.S. thing here. In the U.S. the main sources of lost balls are water hazards and OB shots, neither of which requires some kind of extensive search for the ball. HC golfers also tend to hit the ball a shorter distance, making it easier to see and pinpoint exactly where to look to find it in tall grass. We don't have much fescue or other tall grasses on our courses here because they're mostly parkland-style courses with one or two cuts of rough across the entire property no higher than 4" at its deepest. I know Europe has a lot more links and links-style courses with tall grasses that make it easy to lose a ball and/or waste time searching for them.

Scoring Discussion

I guess this to me has never been an issue, just because it doesn't slow things down and you're supposed to pay attention to the player you're scoring anyways. "You hit one off the tee, two into the hazard, three was your drop, and then the chip was for four," is quick and easy, you already know it because you're watching the player you're scoring for, and it's done before you even finish the walk to the next teebox. Only gets annoying to me if it feels like the player I'm scoring for is trying to intentionally cheat, which is quite rare and it's only happened to me once when scoring for an HC golfer (the rest all happened with LC golfers). Simple counting errors can happen to anyone, especially if you're flustered because you just had a bad hole. LC golfers tend to get more flustered by the bad holes with 6+ shots because those happen less often for them, but 6+ shots happens more often for HC golfers so it's been a bit of a wash in my experience.

 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, JuliWooli said:

My tolerance level is at best a three and, by the sound of it, yours is nearer to ten. Am I the only golfer on TST who is well below five on a scale from one to ten or am I perhaps the most honest. BTW I am fairly popular in real life. Probably because I'm gorgeous.

3 hours ago, JuliWooli said:

I totally agree but you must admit lower handicappers tend to have better etiquette.

Of course there are exceptions but please don't tell me when you look at the start list that you don't make judgements depending on the quality of the player. If I'm put out with 3 players of 18 or over, which happens all too often, I feel like going home. Normally my initial dread realises itself, on the course, more often than not. 

3 hours ago, JuliWooli said:

I'll give you that @Zippo and I've already said there are exceptions on both sides.

22 handicap you say.

Sir, you're a God-damn liar!

Looks like someone can learn to use the Multiquote button. 🙂 

[Pretzel]

Just to make sure I'm being clear here, all of what I've said has been my personal experience solely golfing in the U.S. and in a lot of different tournaments. I haven't played anywhere outside the U.S. or Mexico, and for the most part I've played events and my rounds of golf at public courses rather than private clubs if that makes any difference.

On the weekends when casual golfers are the majority, 1-20 rounds a year golfers, then I do find that the "serious golfers" who carry a handicap at all tend to be much better with pace of play regardless of if the handicap is low or high. Those golfers who do actually hold a handicap and regularly play, those are the golfers that I encounter playing in tournaments and that's where I haven't noticed any distinct trends about how much I enjoy playing with people based on their handicap. I still enjoy playing with plenty of the casual golfers when I go out on the weekends, but there are more of them that I'd rather not play with, given the choice, simply due to the pace of play alone. When I play in the busy times on the weekend it's usually because I'm going out to spend time with my friends, with the golf as a background activity, because otherwise the slow play sends me up a wall since it's often a log-jam ahead with people packed in right behind you as well (so you can't even toss out extra balls to practice because you'd be holding up people behind you on the same hole).

Edited March 9, 2021 by Pretzel

[JuliWooli]

@Pretzel I do enjoy your detailed replies, abbreviations (LC & HC) and profound opinions. I am pretty sure that golfers, in general, tend to have better etiquette etc in the UK and probably the US but my experience here in mainland Europe differs. 

On this board your views have been approved by most and although I disagree, for my personal reasons, I must accept that not everywhere is the same. I envy you all.

[darthweasel]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I admit nothing of the sort, at least at my club.  Understanding of appropriate etiquette doesn't seem to be linked in any way to handicap level, outside of the occasional beginner.  And really, beginners are often the most accepting of advice surrounding etiquette.  Low handicappers, who tend to have more experience, are generally strongly set in their ways, even when their ways are wrong.  Of course there are a few individuals who I prefer not to be paired with, but their handicaps run the gamut.

 

I like where your head is at and agree about 100%. I often describe myself as a "mediocre golfer at best". My handicap has ranged from over 22 on down to 12.8, currently sitting at a 14.2.   I have very, very seldom had people comment on my score regardless of what my handicap was at the time.

I have had a very large number of people comment "that was among the funnest rounds I have had" or similar words across the entire range of my handicaps. At a course I play often I have had people request my particular tee time. They have run the gamut from probably shooting somewhere in the mid 130s if they counted all their strokes on down to single digit handicaps, one of whom specifically asked for me as his playing partner at a tournament we are playing the 20th of this month.

None of their enjoyment of the round has anything to do with my skill level in golf as marked by a handicap and a lot to do with me as a person. If I was a decent person at a high handicap, I will likely be a decent one at a low handicap (if I ever get there). If I was a jerk at a high handicap...that will not magically stop because I become a better golfer. I will still be a jerk. 

[JuliWooli]

I was once reported to the committee after a tournament for slow play. I nearly dropped the trophy that I won that day. I shot a 75 (3 over) and at the time my handicap was around 7. I was a slower player back then with a 15 second pre-shot routine and could overdo it a little with club selection and throwing grass in the air etc. Even so, I was shocked with my team mates who played quite poorly that day. They were all LC who had played with me many times. It was a day that I didn't miss a fairway and hit most GIR. On most holes, I spent a lot of time helping one or two of them search for their wayward balls and our foursome took just over 4 1/2 hours to finish 18.

Of course I didn't get a warning but these three players continued to insist that my slow play had caused the problem. I gladly refused to play with the feckers after that.