Elevation Change Distance Adjustment: Yardage Book Versus Rangefinder (Or Equivalent Device)

[Darkfrog]

This year I am trying to gain a better understanding of the Rules of Golf. I was browsing comments in the Is Your Handicap Accurate thread and a rules question popped into my head. The rule(s) I'm curious about are described in 4.3.a.

I understand that a player may not gain an advantage by "Using equipment (other than a club or a ball) that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game". Per rule 4.3.a(1), a device like a rangefinder with slope calculations (or equivalent) is not allowed.

But 4.3.1(3) also says that information gathered before a round is acceptable to use.

For sake of discussion, here is a scenario. I am playing a practice round today and on a downhill par-3, I use a slope enabled rangefinder to determine the elevation related distance adjustment from the front, middle, and back of each tee box, and note these adjustments in my yardage book. Then the next day, I play a round under the Rules of Golf, and use the information previously gathered to help make club selection for the tee shot on this hole. What is the distinction that makes one acceptable and the other not acceptable?

To me, conceptually, using a slope enabled range finder to get distance adjustment versus noting the data from this device in a practice round, and then using it in a round, seem like the same thing. Is there some nuance that I am missing here?

[dennyjones]

I'm hoping to learn something from your question.   I understand your logic and can't argue against it.    To my way of thinking it's no different than green reading books.   

[onthehunt526]

18 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

This year I am trying to gain a better understanding of the Rules of Golf. I was browsing comments in the Is Your Handicap Accurate thread and a rules question popped into my head. The rule(s) I'm curious about are described in 4.3.a.

I understand that a player may not gain an advantage by "Using equipment (other than a club or a ball) that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game". Per rule 4.3.a(1), a device like a rangefinder with slope calculations (or equivalent) is not allowed.

But 4.3.1(3) also says that information gathered before a round is acceptable to use.

For sake of discussion, here is a scenario. I am playing a practice round today and on a downhill par-3, I use a slope enabled rangefinder to determine the elevation related distance adjustment from the front, middle, and back of each tee box, and note these adjustments in my yardage book. Then the next day, I play a round under the Rules of Golf, and use the information previously gathered to help make club selection for the tee shot on this hole. What is the distinction that makes one acceptable and the other not acceptable?

To me, conceptually, using a slope enabled range finder to get distance adjustment versus noting the data from this device in a practice round, and then using it in a round, seem like the same thing. Is there some nuance that I am missing here?

I think if it’s a “practice round” and you write down what you have learned on a notepad or in a yardage book. I don’t see the harm. It’s actually not cheating. Knowing an elevation change is actually what the USGA and R&A call “General Knowledge”. 
 

In a competitive round you can’t ask what club someone hit, but you can ask “How far are you out?” Especially for things like determining order of play in match play. 

[ncates00]

38 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

This year I am trying to gain a better understanding of the Rules of Golf. I was browsing comments in the Is Your Handicap Accurate thread and a rules question popped into my head. The rule(s) I'm curious about are described in 4.3.a.

I understand that a player may not gain an advantage by "Using equipment (other than a club or a ball) that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game". Per rule 4.3.a(1), a device like a rangefinder with slope calculations (or equivalent) is not allowed.

But 4.3.1(3) also says that information gathered before a round is acceptable to use.

For sake of discussion, here is a scenario. I am playing a practice round today and on a downhill par-3, I use a slope enabled rangefinder to determine the elevation related distance adjustment from the front, middle, and back of each tee box, and note these adjustments in my yardage book. Then the next day, I play a round under the Rules of Golf, and use the information previously gathered to help make club selection for the tee shot on this hole. What is the distinction that makes one acceptable and the other not acceptable?

To me, conceptually, using a slope enabled range finder to get distance adjustment versus noting the data from this device in a practice round, and then using it in a round, seem like the same thing. Is there some nuance that I am missing here?

 

Rule 4 - The Player's Equipment

Purpose of Rule: Rule 4 covers the equipment that players may use during a round. Based on the principle that golf is a challenging game in which success should depend on the player’s judgment, skills and abilities, the player:

• Must use conforming clubs and balls,

• Is limited to no more than 14 clubs and normally must not replace damaged or lost clubs, and

• Is restricted in the use of other equipment that gives artificial help to his or her play.

(emphasis added). Use of a slope rangefinder and note taking does not fall under this rule because it is not “during a round.” 

Moreover, you already cited permitted uses before a round. So, I fail to see any nuance here. The rule is very clear to me.

 It seems to me that your question is getting at why the difference—e.g., the underlying policy behind the rule. I don’t know. Perhaps that’s a good question, but I’m a rules guy; I’m not too concerned about underlying rationale/policy behind a rule, so long as the rule is clear and consistent. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by ncates00

[Darkfrog]

18 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

I think if it’s a “practice round” and you write down what you have learned on a notepad or in a yardage book. I don’t see the harm. It’s actually not cheating. 

5 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

(emphasis added). Use of a slope rangefinder and note taking does not fall under this rule because it is not “during a round.” 

Moreover, you already cited permitted uses before a round. So, I fail to see any nuance here. The rule is very clear to me

Agreed, I understand the rule. What I am curious about is why there is a distinction between using a slope enabled rangefinder in a practice round to obtain detailed data about elevation change related distance adjustments and noting them in a yardage book, as compared to using the slope enabled rangefinder in a round to get the same data.

And just for clarity - I'm not advocating for any change, just trying to understand why the data, originating from the same device, is treated differently in the rules for in round as opposed to not in round, as both seem to provide the same advantage.

[DaveP043]

33 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

To me, conceptually, using a slope enabled range finder to get distance adjustment versus noting the data from this device in a practice round, and then using it in a round, seem like the same thing. Is there some nuance that I am missing here?

The Rules, for the most part, cannot govern what a player does when not competing.  If you can gather information, you can use it.  If you have access, you could go to that course while not playing and run detailed surveys to get the information.  You could get large-scale topographic maps and get the information.  You can use the elevation services of Google Earth and get the information.  Or you can play a practice round and hit multiple shots from that tee to learn how much difference the elevation actually makes.  Its all gathering information, in one way or another.

The Rules have, for as long as I've played, allowed the player to bring his own information to the course for a competition.  In response to the "green reading books", the Rules now restrict the level of detail and overall page size you can use.  The rules do disallow a number of "information gathering" techniques from being used during the round, including slope, wind measurement, heart rate, etc.  The only way to disallow the slope information you're discussing would be to disallow ALL indications of elevation changes.  No showing a cliff, no showing a ridgeline, different tiers on a green, no contour indications of any kind.  I just don't see that happening, and I don't think its necessary.

[Darkfrog]

57 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

If you can gather information, you can use it.  If you have access, you could go to that course while not playing and run detailed surveys to get the information.  You could get large-scale topographic maps and get the information.  You can use the elevation services of Google Earth and get the information.  Or you can play a practice round and hit multiple shots from that tee to learn how much difference the elevation actually makes.  Its all gathering information, in one way or another.

I wonder if part of the distinction I am seeking lies in the term artificially in rule 4.3.a? A slope enabled rangefinder is doing some sort of calculation to predict an elevation adjusted yardage. Perhaps information gathered outside of a round while aided by a slope adjusted rangefinder ceases to be considered artificial once it is noted in a yardage book, even if the information is identical, from the same origin, and provides the same advantage.

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

The only way to disallow the slope information you're discussing would be to disallow ALL indications of elevation changes.  No showing a cliff, no showing a ridgeline, different tiers on a green, no contour indications of any kind.  I just don't see that happening, and I don't think its necessary.

I'm not advocating that it be allowed/disallowed, and I also don't think any change is necessary. To be honest, I don't find calculated elevation adjusted yardages particularly useful without also hitting a several shots from the same spot to understand what is actually going to happen once the ball leaves the club. I just find it interesting to try and understand the rationale behind certain rules.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Darkfrog said:

I wonder if part of the distinction I am seeking lies in the term artificially in rule 4.3.a? A slope enabled rangefinder is doing some sort of calculation to predict an elevation adjusted yardage.

You’re overthinking it. You’re not allowed to do so during a round. That’s all.

[Darkfrog]

18 minutes ago, billchao said:

You’re overthinking it. You’re not allowed to do so during a round. That’s all.

Yes, but intentionally. I want to know if there is a reason why.

I figure if there is a reason, some of the rules experts on TST might know.

 

[DaveP043]

The difference really is simple.  Information collected before the round, by whatever means, is acceptable.  Information collected by artificial means during the round is NOT allowed to be used.  The exception they made for DMDs reflects the fact that you CAN get distance information without artificial assistance.  Slope, wind speed, heart rate, tempo assistance through music, and I don't know how many other artificial assists are against the rules.

[mohearn]

Pardon the pun, but it's probably a slippery slope allowing distance measuring devices and having to draw the line somewhere on electronics.  I guess that means that Arccos/Shotscope and similar are disallowed to use to get club selection decisions? I've never used them myself, but now and then ponder buying one of them to try.

 

[billchao]

1 minute ago, mohearn said:

Pardon the pun, but it's probably a slippery slope allowing distance measuring devices and having to draw the line somewhere on electronics.  I guess that means that Arccos/Shotscope and similar are disallowed to use to get club selection decisions? I've never used them myself, but now and then ponder buying one of them to try.

 

In a competitive round, yes. That shouldn’t stop you from buying one, as you can play non-tournament rounds and learn your yardages for tournament days.

[ncates00]

1 hour ago, Darkfrog said:

I want to know if there is a reason why.

I think the others are posting similar things because your original post asked about whether you could even do it or if there was something you missed. Now, you’ve moved onto the underlying rationale. Who knows? I think @DaveP043 made a good attempt at explaining the policy reason: hard to govern what players do before a round. Might as well just draw the line at playing an official round. You could argue it’s arbitrary, but it is what it is. 

[Darkfrog]

43 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The difference really is simple.  Information collected before the round, by whatever means, is acceptable.  Information collected by artificial means during the round is NOT allowed to be used.

Yeah, admittedly, out of my own curiosity, I am probably exploring this subject more deeply than necessary.

But I still can't quite reconcile what is different about using an artificial elevation-adjusted distance measurement out of round and recording the information on paper to be used while in round versus getting the same information while in a round directly from the device. A yardage book with information from the device gathered out of round, and the device, both seem to be equipment that gives artificial information that eliminate/reduce the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game.

6 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I think the others are posting similar things because your original post asked about whether you could even do it or if there was something you missed.

The intent of my original post was to inquire about the rationale behind the rule. I'm clear on what the rule allows. Maybe it wasn't written clearly.

8 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I think @DaveP043 made a good attempt at explaining the policy reason: hard to govern what players do before a round.

This seems like the best explanation, and if that's what it is, I'm satisfied. I thought maybe there was additional advantage gained from using a slope enabled rangefinder in round versus out of round that I wasn't thinking of.

[DaveP043]

19 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

But I still can't quite reconcile what is different about using an artificial elevation-adjusted distance measurement out of round and recording the information on paper to be used while in round versus getting the same information while in a round directly from the device. A yardage book with information from the device gathered out of round, and the device, both seem to be equipment that gives artificial information that eliminate/reduce the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game.

I think it helps to look back about 60 years or so.  From what I've read, Jack Nicklaus as one of the first to begin using maps and yardages.  He'd have his caddie pace off distances so he know how far each shot was.  So the maps developed and got more detailed, and more people began using them.  All of this was within the rules, nothing was written to limit those personal notes, and the notes evolved over the years to be the yardage books we're familiar with.  Those maps would have notations of physical features, including terrain details.  Again, all legal.  The big change was when GPS and laser distance measurements became affordable, at about the same time as Aimpoint theory was developed and super-detailed greens mapping became possible.  NOW its not a human pacing a distance, its "artificial".  And that's where the line began to be drawn.  The Ruling Bodies knew better than to try to turn back time, knew better than to outlaw all notes and all maps, but they drew the line at "artificial".  Now they've relented to allow artificial distance measurements, since you really CAN do that without assistance, but other artificial assistance is against the rules.  Notes are still OK, with some limitations, but almost every artificial on-course assistance is out..

[onthehunt526]

3 hours ago, Darkfrog said:

I wonder if part of the distinction I am seeking lies in the term artificially in rule 4.3.a? A slope enabled rangefinder is doing some sort of calculation to predict an elevation adjusted yardage. Perhaps information gathered outside of a round while aided by a slope adjusted rangefinder ceases to be considered artificial once it is noted in a yardage book, even if the information is identical, from the same origin, and provides the same advantage.

I'm not advocating that it be allowed/disallowed, and I also don't think any change is necessary. To be honest, I don't find calculated elevation adjusted yardages particularly useful without also hitting a several shots from the same spot to understand what is actually going to happen once the ball leaves the club. I just find it interesting to try and understand the rationale behind certain rules.

I agree with the obtaining information part. Hell I’m sure caddies use slope enabled rangefinders when getting yardage for a particular tournament.

Hell the yardage book that you can buy for the Stadium Course at TPC Sawgrass has the elevation changes written right in the yardage book.

[iacas]

Dave has answered your question multiple times now.

What if the course architect wanted to play the course in an event? Should he be disallowed because he knows the elevation changes?

[Darkfrog]

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

Dave has answered your question multiple times now.

What if the course architect wanted to play the course in an event? Should he be disallowed because he knows the elevation changes?

The question in my mind that I am trying to get insight on hasn't completely been answered, but maybe I am asking the wrong question, or asking in the wrong way, or there isn't really an answer, or possibly I'm just an idiot.

It's not about knowing the elevation changes, or distances, or elevation-adjusted distances. Let me see if I can come up with a better way to phrase my question.