Instructional Video Critique Topic

[billchao]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:24 AM, iacas said:

No, toe up to toe up is 90 to 90. This is the same 180°.

I mean from 60° at A6 to ~0° vs 90° to ~0°. It’s less squaring required in the same window of the downswing. But yea I see what you mean, it’s the same RoC.

On 10/23/2021 at 10:24 AM, iacas said:

That’s only really true when you measure it in a time based system. This is a distance based system.

Is it not a valid point, though? If the goal of reducing RoC resulted in a slower swing, that might not necessarily be a good thing. Generally when a player changes one element of a swing, others can be affected as well, right?

[mdl]

On 10/20/2021 at 9:01 PM, iacas said:

Very, very quick video.

Thoughts? Some questions/comments:

• Do you think 60° to 120° is a lot?
• Is there a benefit in reducing that number/rotation?
• Is this something you "do" or something that "happens"?
• What are some other PGA Tour player numbers? What do you think?

I've seen instruction on trying to match your spin angle at A6 and A8, so like 60˚ open to 60˚ closed. So 180˚ would be a lot by that standard. But I've seen very few pros who do that. They're usually in the 60-90˚ open range at A6 (even DJ with his pre-bowed wrist comes in around 60˚ in the videos I've seen). And almost always past 90˚ closed at A8. How far depends a lot on shot shape as I understand. For example, Morikawa gets to ~90˚ closed at A8. But Rory and Rahm get more to ~120˚ closed.

In the videos I've viewed the correlation is lower but in general I've noticed a similar relationship to the A6 position. Cutters are closer to 60˚ and drawers are closer to 90˚. To me this is a good indication of why most tour pros have gone away from the draw with the driver. Rotating the face 200˚ (90˚ open to 120˚ closed) from A6 to A8 sure seems harder to make pro level consistent than rotating 150˚ (60˚ open to 90˚ closed).

[iacas]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

I mean from 60° at A6 to ~0° vs 90° to ~0°. It’s less squaring required in the same window of the downswing. But yea I see what you mean, it’s the same RoC.

Ah, okay.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

Is it not a valid point, though? If the goal of reducing RoC resulted in a slower swing, that might not necessarily be a good thing. Generally when a player changes one element of a swing, others can be affected as well, right?

I was responding to you saying "RoC is related to clubhead speed." It's true in a time-based system. If a player goes from 90° to 90° from A6 to A8, that's 180° in that "distance," but if they swing at 92 MPH their "rate of closure" in a time-based system (i.e. RPM) is going to be slower, almost surely, than someone who goes 90° to 90° at 132 MPH.

So, you can reduce RoC (distance) while swinging faster, increase RoC (distance) while swinging slower, etc.

I'm just making the point that it's important to understand whether you're talking about it in time (RPM) or distance (whether that's within the foot before/after impact or from A6 to A8 or something like that).

---

34 minutes ago, mdl said:

I've seen instruction on trying to match your spin angle at A6 and A8, so like 60˚ open to 60˚ closed. So 180˚ would be a lot by that standard. But I've seen very few pros who do that.

Few do, yeah. But instructionally, it's more about how some amateurs do it versus how the pros do it.

Most amateur golfers will stall the pivot, and the clubhead will more "overtake" as part of a flip/roll. PGA Tour players don't stall the body, so I'm often trying to reduce a little closure to encourage the body to do a lot more work.

34 minutes ago, mdl said:

How far depends a lot on shot shape as I understand.

I don't know if I'd say that.

34 minutes ago, mdl said:

For example, Morikawa gets to ~90˚ closed at A8. But Rory and Rahm get more to ~120˚ closed.

These aren't "measurements" by any stretch, but…

34 minutes ago, mdl said:

To me this is a good indication of why most tour pros have gone away from the draw with the driver. Rotating the face 200˚ (90˚ open to 120˚ closed) from A6 to A8 sure seems harder to make pro level consistent than rotating 150˚ (60˚ open to 90˚ closed).

I think you'd be surprised at how many PGA Tour players draw their drivers.

[GolfLug]

• Do you think 60° to 120° is a lot? - No. I the UTL videos I have seen shows these to be about right with these numbers.
• Is there a benefit in reducing that number/rotation? Yes, in certain types of shots. IMHO, 3/4 wedge swing shots for a more controlled trajectory requires 'holding' (speaking very loosely) and hence less face rotation. Spins a bit less because of lower spin loft.  
• Is this something you "do" or something that "happens"? - Yes, it requires 'intention', longer, wider arc and a bit more of a freewheeling motion and a more active 'toe drive' through impact. But def not by actively rotating hands (I think that would qualify as a flip). 
• What are some other PGA Tour player numbers? What do you think? - This is purely a guess. DJ has a lower ROC (already shut face at A4) compared to let's say Phil. Can't tell exact numbers. We need to get them on GEARS. Heh.

[mdl]

On 6/21/2021 at 7:59 AM, iacas said:

 

• Would have loved to show advanced versions, like where you can manipulate the path a bit by how much the arms come off the chest, etc.

I’d love to hear more about this. I’ve used the finish low to draw, high to fade. For me that tends to get me more push slice flare or low bullet hook (like not quite duck hook). Admittedly I’ve never really looked super hard into it nor  practiced it super hard.

Edited October 26, 2021 by mdl

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, mdl said:

I’d love to hear more about this. I’ve used the finish low to draw, high to fade. For me that tends to get me more push slice flare or low bullet hook (like not quite duck hook). Admittedly I’ve never really looked super hard into it nor  practiced it super hard.

Generally it's the opposite, actually… 😉 

[mdl]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

Generally it's the opposite, actually… 😉 

Interesting. I've used finish low as a key to roll over my wrists sooner without actively rolling them. Finish high is the opposite. For me at least while the D-plane near the ball might be tilted right for draw and left for fade – which if you keep a perfect swing plan all the way through would mean low finish for fade and high for draw – the effect of thinking high/low finish has been the opposite. That's Morikawa's feel too.

 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, mdl said:

Interesting. I've used finish low as a key to roll over my wrists sooner without actively rolling them. Finish high is the opposite. For me at least while the D-plane near the ball might be tilted right for draw and left for fade – which if you keep a perfect swing plan all the way through would mean low finish for fade and high for draw – the effect of thinking high/low finish has been the opposite. That's Morikawa's feel too.

Sure, but… you two are in the minority. Faders (slicers) exit low and left. Drawers/hookers high and right. Generally speaking.

Collin's comment in that video is very brief.

[mdl]

On 10/27/2021 at 5:54 PM, iacas said:

Sure, but… you two are in the minority. Faders (slicers) exit low and left. Drawers/hookers high and right. Generally speaking.

Collin's comment in that video is very brief.

Ha. Fair enough.

[iacas]

I have a few problems with this video. But essentially, it fails as a good "test" because:

• The guy knew what grip he was hitting each time (not that he wouldn't feel it, but still).
• They hit like 3 or 4 balls with each and that was it. And the order wasn't even randomized or anything.
• They didn't control for swing weight, so this wasn't just a test of grip size (I'm aware that thicker grips tend to have lower swing weights and higher static weights).

Why use the GCQuad for the club data when the GEARS is much, much more accurate? For example, what was the original setup position of each of the clubs? Maybe he gripped the thinner grip more closed?

TXG videos are well produced, the guys are likable, but they seem to do this kind of stuff a lot: draw conclusions based on very limited data and a low number (often just the one golfer) hitting shots.

[Zippo]

 

I can't find many Pros to this video (maybe someone else can) but the cons for me:

1. There is a whole lot more difference to the two swings than just the speed

2. He doesn't acknowledge those other differences

3. The differences are so obvious (other than the speed) that it detracts from his message

[Old1964]

I was really hoping he had the "secret" to great golf without good practice - LOL

 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Zippo said:

I can't find many Pros to this video (maybe someone else can) but the cons for me:

1. There is a whole lot more difference to the two swings than just the speed

2. He doesn't acknowledge those other differences

3. The differences are so obvious (other than the speed) that it detracts from his message

Not only that, but the "bad" swing was the slower swing if you look at clubhead speed.

[iacas]

• At 55 seconds or so… no, that's not the bounce. The bounce is on the sole. The bounce is not the part of the club that basically doesn't ever touch the ground.
• Yes, slightly toe down (~9:00).
• No, not by gripping it up the lifeline (~10:00). By gripping down and standing a little taller, moving the ball closer to you. Yes, you have more range of motion in the fingers… Look at his initial setup at 11:54 and you'll see how awkward it looks. It's a putting setup.
• We don't want the "complex" outside the hands (the poster frame of the video is about this point at 16:45 or so). That is a leading edge/slide the clubhead under the ball manually move. I can see what he means by adding palmar flexion to roll the club inside/underneath… but that's a different motion than rolling the forearms a little/turning with the body more.
• Look at how awkward the motion looks at 18:00. Gripping it way in the palm and trying to hinge the club up. Not a fan.
• 20:12, bad units, man. It's 9.8m/s^2, not m/s. 😀 I don't mind the "slightly decelerating" part though. More relevant to putting, though. The clubhead is typically still accelerating on a pitch shot. Feel ain't real.

[iacas]

Thoughts on this?

[ChetlovesMer]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Thoughts on this?

Firstly, the guys are pleasant and the teacher guy seems knowledgeable. I get nervous with learning any drill off youtube for a couple of reasons. What if this isn't addressing your specific problem? The other thing I worry about is without another set of eyes looking at you, it can be difficult (at least for me) to be sure I'm "doing it right". I'd be nervous about doing more harm than good. In this case the guy's already an experienced golfer. So, he's got a foundation from which to start. I'm guessing he may have worked with this swing coach before.

As far as the content. This seems to be one of the hot youtube golf instruction trends. Driving or even jumping off the lead leg. I've seen this content delivered at least a few times in slightly different ways, and I'm not even looking for this type of content. I've seen pushing the chair back, scraping the carpet, literally jumping etc...

Overall, I'm not a huge fan of the stop motion drill. I think I might prefer to slow-motion into their stop position, take a moment to check positions, then slow motion out of that position. Then gradually speed the whole thing up. Or just start in their stopped position. Then try to incorporate that into the full swing. However, I'm sure their are many people the stop motion drill would work for. 

I know when we're working on my swing, we'll sometimes try and discard a couple of different ways to get the right feel. Which is another issue with learning swing techniques on youtube. If this drill or feel doesn't work for you, there's no other option. 

Overall, this is far from the worst swing drill video I've seen on youtube. 

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Firstly, the guys are pleasant and the teacher guy seems knowledgeable. I get nervous with learning any drill off youtube for a couple of reasons. What if this isn't addressing your specific problem?

Brendon wasn’t bad on this video, but in many others he’s hard to watch. He’s a motor mouth and often interrupts, over talks and doesn’t pay enough attention to what the guest instructor is saying.

As for the ‘ not addressing your specific problem’ I’m not sure this applies to that. IMO this appears to be instruction on what they feel all good players do. They’re not suggesting things like path, grip changes, hip spinning, etc…things that may not be an issue for some players and may hurt. 
 

This might not be useful for those who perform this movement, but I don’t think people working on this will be ‘harmed’ by trying to learn this mechanic. Just my opinion of course. 

[GolfLug]

I think a good drill. I like how it's broken down by movement and purpose. I believe I have a tendency to stiffen up the upper body far too early and throw the club at the ball through impact. I suspect it's a common tendency among mid/high handicappers. 

I guess you can overdo anything but if you are mindful of not being too herky jerky during the stop start transition, it will serve it's purpose.