Local Rule E-5 Drop Area on a Dogleg

[Dick Kusleika]

I sent this to my golf league to demonstrate the drop are for local rule e-5 in lieu of stroke and distance.

But now I think maybe it should have been this

 

That second one gives you a lot more options to be in the fairway and avoid trees on the right. Can you confirm that one of those is right or help me understand where I've gone wrong?

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, Dick Kusleika said:

I sent this to my golf league to demonstrate the drop are for local rule e-5 in lieu of stroke and distance.

But now I think maybe it should have been this

 

That second one gives you a lot more options to be in the fairway and avoid trees on the right. Can you confirm that one of those is right or help me understand where I've gone wrong?

The second one is correct.  For reference, see the diagrams, as you get further from the hole, the Relief Area becomes wider.

[Dick Kusleika]

Great. Thanks for the help.

[Rulesman]

7 hours ago, Dick Kusleika said:

I sent this to my golf league to demonstrate the drop are for local rule e-5 in lieu of stroke and distance.

 

But now I think maybe it should have been this

 

 

From the book

Edited April 19, 2022 by Rulesman

[Dick Kusleika]

Every example I see only has a small bit of fairway in the relief area, which is why I mistakenly thought I had to draw a triangle. I have yet to see a USGA or other example that includes a large swath of fairway (although to be fair, 15 minutes of Google image search isn't very exhaustive).

But that is a good and illustrative example and I appreciate you posting it.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Dick Kusleika
add additional info

[DaveP043]

44 minutes ago, Dick Kusleika said:

although to be fair, 15 minutes of Google image search isn't very exhaustive

I'd suggest searching the actual Rules of Golf, rather than using Google.  The Diagram that @Rulesman included is part of the Model Local Rule, which you can find under Committee Procedures., Section 8.  The Rules can be accessed online here:

  https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=pe&section=rule&rulenum=1

or you can download the Rules to your phone.  If you do that, be sure to click the More button, Settings, and turn on Expert Mode, otherwise you can only see the Players Edition.

[reidsou]

Little known fact about this rule: the fairway edge reference point may be further from the hole. Because it is the nearest fairway point no closer to the hole. In many cases that may be behind you. 

[DaveP043]

33 minutes ago, reidsou said:

Little known fact about this rule: the fairway edge reference point may be further from the hole. Because it is the nearest fairway point no closer to the hole. In many cases that may be behind you. 

I've worked through this possibility before, a par-3 at my home course has no actual fairway.  The nearest location for the Fairway Reference Point in that case is the edge of the nearest teeing ground (not the Teeing Area as defined, but the entire area mowed to fairway height).

[imsys0042]

On 4/28/2022 at 12:10 PM, DaveP043 said:

I've worked through this possibility before, a par-3 at my home course has no actual fairway.  The nearest location for the Fairway Reference Point in that case is the edge of the nearest teeing ground (not the Teeing Area as defined, but the entire area mowed to fairway height).

So question then....if a par three has an extended apron around it and not just a ring of fringe, is that acceptable to use as a Fairway Reference point or do you have to go back to the teeing area.  This causes a lot of questions where I play and it'd be good to be sure about the answer.

 

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, imsys0042 said:

So question then....if a par three has an extended apron around it and not just a ring of fringe, is that acceptable to use as a Fairway Reference point or do you have to go back to the teeing area.  This causes a lot of questions where I play and it'd be good to be sure about the answer.

Here's the relevant bit from E-5:

"b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

As I read this, the Fairway Reference Point cannot be on the apron of the green, that area is (almost always) nearer the hole than the Ball Reference Point.  So you look back, and find the nearest point to define that "angle"

[imsys0042]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Here's the relevant bit from E-5:

"b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

As I read this, the Fairway Reference Point cannot be on the apron of the green, that area is (almost always) nearer the hole than the Ball Reference Point.  So you look back, and find the nearest point to define that "angle"

Very interesting, thanks!   I'm going to let the guy who heads our golf association know that maybe he might want to clarify this for tournaments.

[DaveP043]

13 minutes ago, imsys0042 said:

Very interesting, thanks!   I'm going to let the guy who heads our golf association know that maybe he might want to clarify this for tournaments.

I forgot to include this bit, just a little further into the Rule:

"If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less."

To me that makes it pretty clear.  Also, I remember that I did this illustration for a hole at my home club.  The only areas cut to fairway height are the green surround, and the tees.  

[DrvFrShow]

On 7/19/2022 at 8:41 AM, DaveP043 said:

I forgot to include this bit, just a little further into the Rule:

"If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less."

To me that makes it pretty clear.  Also, I remember that I did this illustration for a hole at my home club.  The only areas cut to fairway height are the green surround, and the tees.  

That diagram is the mirror image of what I had to do last week. I pulled my 2nd shot on the 13th hole OB. Now I could see the ball thru the fence OB in someone's backyard. I had hoped it hadn't gone OB because it was flag high. And I knew from where I hit the ball. So where was my relief area? I know the path of the ball was straight. I had made note of which tree was behind me and in line with where the ball had gone OB. I paced back to where that line crossed onto the fairway which was a good 50 yds. And then I went thru the dropping routine. I believe the way I did it was correct according to the diagram in the USGA rules.

[reidsou]

22 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

That diagram is the mirror image of what I had to do last week. I pulled my 2nd shot on the 13th hole OB. Now I could see the ball thru the fence OB in someone's backyard. I had hoped it hadn't gone OB because it was flag high. And I knew from where I hit the ball. So where was my relief area? I know the path of the ball was straight. I had made note of which tree was behind me and in line with where the ball had gone OB. I paced back to where that line crossed onto the fairway which was a good 50 yds. And then I went thru the dropping routine. I believe the way I did it was correct according to the diagram in the USGA rules.

I don't think this was correct. The line of where the ball crossed the fairway is not relevant to the fairway reference point for defining the relief area. The fairway reference point, according to the rule, is "The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point." 

See the model local rule for more. 

[DrvFrShow]

4 hours ago, reidsou said:

I don't think this was correct. The line of where the ball crossed the fairway is not relevant to the fairway reference point for defining the relief area. The fairway reference point, according to the rule, is "The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point." 

See the model local rule for more. 

Okay, so it's the nearest fairway point to where the ball went OB. I looked at the diagram. Honestly it would have been maybe 10 yds. closer to the hole than where I dropped. with the 2 stroke penalty I ended up with a triple on it so I don't think it really made much difference, but I'll make note next time it happens. Teaches me to try to make up distance from a topped shot rather than hitting a 6i and laying up for a short chip and going for a bogey.

[billchao]

On 7/23/2022 at 3:04 PM, DrvFrShow said:

That diagram is the mirror image of what I had to do last week. I pulled my 2nd shot on the 13th hole OB. Now I could see the ball thru the fence OB in someone's backyard. I had hoped it hadn't gone OB because it was flag high. And I knew from where I hit the ball. So where was my relief area? I know the path of the ball was straight. I had made note of which tree was behind me and in line with where the ball had gone OB. I paced back to where that line crossed onto the fairway which was a good 50 yds. And then I went thru the dropping routine. I believe the way I did it was correct according to the diagram in the USGA rules.

The ball reference point is the point where the ball was estimated to have crossed out of bounds. Then you find the fairway reference point, which cannot be closer to the hole from the ball reference point. So if you know the path of the ball and where the OB line is, you know the ball reference point.

You probably gave up some yards, but it sounds like it's within the relief area. Honestly most of the time I just drop my ball within two clublengths of the ball reference point and forego the fairway thing altogether.