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TST Explores the ShotScope H4 (Stats Tracking Device) and Pro LX Rangefinder


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On 7/14/2022 at 8:02 AM, ChetlovesMer said:

That's a thing?

Hmmm... I have so much to learn.

Yes, we talked about it.

af88773ec39c3c052ccf528e5077c0fe15287612

A positional shot is an approach shot where you are not attempting to hit the green, instead you are intentionally playing into another part of the course. The two typical scenarios where this woul...
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1) On a par 5 when you can't reach the green so lay up to a suitable distance for your third shot.

2) If your drive goes into trouble and you need to play out sideways on the second shot.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Question: How do I (and should I) remove shots from the stats that are "not normal"? Here's what I mean. If my drive hits a tree, should I count it toward my stats? If I use a hybrid to punch out from under a tree should I count that toward my stats? If not, how do you have the system ignore a shot for stats? I saw that you can have the system ignore the round, but how about just a shot or two here and there? Or should I not worry about it as it will all come out in the wash in the long run? Or maybe its good just to leave them in as that is a "truer" representation of what I actually hit. 

Here's how GG worked (my first round with ShotScope is later today) for the "not normal" thing.  You'll get the data of how far you hit each club.  Now, after one round, maybe you hit that club three times, and one of those is a punch out from a tree where you did a partial swing and hit your 5-iron 40 yards.  After one round, that looks like a lot of your data -- because it's one of three shots with that club.  After a few rounds, you'll have a bunch of 5-iron data, and that 40 yard low pitch out is an outlier.  You'll be able to tell that from the data.

What GG didn't separate, and I hope ShotScope does (I think the position should help with some, but not all, of this) is when I use a club for many purposes, and some quite often.  For example, I can hit my pitching wedge for a full shot, 90-some yards, or a half shot (60 or so) or a quarter shot (40 or so).  GG put those into one plot, and I'd love to have been able to differentiate intents.  Positional really helps with that, I think, but "intended as a partial shot" and "full swing"

Essentially, it'll come out in the wash unless that club becomes the "I primarily use this to punch out from trees," in which case... that's sort of how you hit it.

One of the nice things about driving distance average in GG, and I assume ShotScope too, is that I can't say "let's only measure the good ones."  My driving distance average isn't the average of my three best drives.  When I play later today, I'll be hitting driver thirteen times (course has five par-3s).  If I hit twelve great and a tree, my average includes that tree.  If I want to recalculate, I can't do it in the software (that's probably a good thing), but I suppose I could multiply my average by thirteen, subtract the tree shot, then divide by twelve if I want a number short-term.

Edited by Shindig

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I AM going to have to glue in the tags. They don't seem very secure. I didn't lose any, but once or twice I had to give one a bit of a twist to make sure it was staying where I wanted it to be.

The come out a little bit on the clubs I have PURE grips on but I’ve gotten into the habit of checking before and after every shot.

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Question: How do I (and should I) remove shots from the stats that are "not normal"? Here's what I mean. If my drive hits a tree, should I count it toward my stats? If I use a hybrid to punch out from under a tree should I count that toward my stats? If not, how do you have the system ignore a shot for stats? I saw that you can have the system ignore the round, but how about just a shot or two here and there? Or should I not worry about it as it will all come out in the wash in the long run? Or maybe its good just to leave them in as that is a "truer" representation of what I actually hit. 

Use your best judgement. They are your stats, after all.

My general rule is if I can hit a standard shot, it’s not positional. So if I happen to hit a tree, then oh well. But if I’m trying to hit a running hook from under a tree with a 6i 120 yards, that’s a positional shot, whether I hit the green or not. Being on the green is a positive result, not necessarily my intention.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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My H4 arrived on Monday. I have set up my bag, added myself to the TST leaderboard, etc. I probably won't get a chance to use it until next weekend, but I think I'm going to like it a lot. 

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-- Daniel

In my bag: :callaway: Paradym :callaway: Epic Flash 3.5W (16 degrees)

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Yes, we talked about it.

I don't always have the best memory. 

 

7 minutes ago, billchao said:

Use your best judgement. They are your stats, after all.

I like to leave them all in there. It's my fault for hitting so many trees yesterday. I was pretty much stinking it up from the tee-box. I want my stats to reflect they days that I stink it up. 

I only have 9 holes of data (I haven't even used every club yet.). During that round I only had 1 true punch out. My short hybrid (tagged as a 4 iron). 

I've only just started with this. 

10 minutes ago, billchao said:

The come out a little bit on the clubs I have PURE grips on but I’ve gotten into the habit of checking before and after every shot.

I too, have the PURE grips. I do find I'm more careful with my clubs. No tossing them. I set them down gently. 

My bag is an ever-changing combination of clubs. 

A mix I am forever tinkering with. 

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12 minutes ago, billchao said:

My general rule is if I can hit a standard shot, it’s not positional. So if I happen to hit a tree, then oh well. But if I’m trying to hit a running hook from under a tree with a 6i 120 yards, that’s a positional shot, whether I hit the green or not. Being on the green is a positive result, not necessarily my intention.

My understanding is second shot on a par-5, if not going for the green, is positional by their meaning.  However, this isn't how Broadie's strokes gained metric defined it (there was no positional, and these were part of strokes gained approach).  But they aren't bound by his meaning.

Hmm.  From Erik's post in the British Open thread, I found out ShotScope has a free St. Andrews book that I'll read.  It looks like they also have a few other golf ebooks that they're giving out for free, too. 

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Oh, wait....so if I'm not specifically marking my second shot on par 5's as positional, will that screw up my approach data?  My most common scenario on a par 5 is to have a full shot on my second shot, but not going for the green.  I'd like that data to count towards club data, but obviously don't want it to be seen negatively on approach data.  It sounds like I either need to mark it as positional and lose the club data for that shot, or have inaccurate approach stats?

Or how about this specific situation from my 9-hole round.  I smacked the top of a tree on my tee shot on a par 4 and it dropped straight down.  Rather than going for the green on my next shot, I used a full wedge to lay up short of the water.  Is this the same as playing out sideways when my drive goes in trouble, even though I used a full swing, because I didn't attempt to go for the green?  I did mark this one as positional, I guess I didn't realize I'd lose club data even on full swings in these scenarios....is what it is I guess, but at least want to make sure I'm using it properly.

image.png.f8032950beb18398d447267c5072d951.png

-Eric

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27 minutes ago, Shindig said:

My understanding is second shot on a par-5, if not going for the green, is positional by their meaning. 

I would guess they don’t have a way to differentiate a shot that’s meant to be positional in their software so it’s better to just remove it completely. Otherwise you’ll get approach shot stats like you missed the green by 100 yards or something.

15 minutes ago, Friz said:

Oh, wait....so if I'm not specifically marking my second shot on par 5's as positional, will that screw up my approach data?  My most common scenario on a par 5 is to have a full shot on my second shot, but not going for the green.  I'd like that data to count towards club data, but obviously don't want it to be seen negatively on approach data.  It sounds like I either need to mark it as positional and lose the club data for that shot, or have inaccurate approach stats?

Or how about this specific situation from my 9-hole round.  I smacked the top of a tree on my tee shot on a par 4 and it dropped straight down.  Rather than going for the green on my next shot, I used a full wedge to lay up short of the water.  Is this the same as playing out sideways when my drive goes in trouble, even though I used a full swing, because I didn't attempt to go for the green?  I did mark this one as positional, I guess I didn't realize I'd lose club data even on full swings in these scenarios....is what it is I guess, but at least want to make sure I'm using it properly.

image.png.f8032950beb18398d447267c5072d951.png

When you get enough data it’s not going to matter much. Honestly some of my positional shots are the longest I’ve ever hit simply because the ball behaves differently landing on a fairway than a green.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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7 minutes ago, billchao said:

I would guess they don’t have a way to differentiate a shot that’s meant to be positional in their software so it’s better to just remove it completely. Otherwise you’ll get approach shot stats like you missed the green by 100 yards or something.

Does it still get included in SG:A data?  Or do they have different baselines?

As long as I have a reasonable comparison for how better handicaps play and to measure my own improvement, I don't really mind -- I'm not comparing data from GG to ShotScope.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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53 minutes ago, Shindig said:

Does it still get included in SG:A data?  Or do they have different baselines?

I’m assuming not.

Quote

By marking a shot as "Positional" it will be excluded from the "Approach' "Short Game" and "Club" stats in your performance data which means your stats stay accurate.

 

I don’t think they record the shot as anything other a stroke was made. My longest 6i shot was on a positional shot and it’s not the shot that’s shown on my club performance page.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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24 minutes ago, billchao said:

I don’t think they record the shot as anything other a stroke was made. My longest 6i shot was on a positional shot and it’s not the shot that’s shown on my club performance page.

It's been linked to at least twice now, yeah:

Quote

By marking a shot as "Positional" it will be excluded from the "Approach' "Short Game" and "Club" stats in your performance data which means your stats stay accurate. Click here to find out how to mark a positional shot.

af88773ec39c3c052ccf528e5077c0fe15287612

A positional shot is an approach shot where you are not attempting to hit the green, instead you are intentionally playing into another part of the course. The two typical scenarios where this woul...

 

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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One more question after going through my stats....is it normal to have multiple "up and down" attempts per hole if I screw up a chip?  There were a couple holes that I did not land my pitch or chip on the green, and had to follow up with another one.  It appears it took both strokes as an "up and down" attempt statistically.  Right now my greens in regulation plus up-and-down attempts equals 12 through 9 holes played.  Maybe I'm not understanding this stat properly, is this a per shot statistic instead of a per hole statistic?  I know its generally recorded as getting down in 2 shots from not being on the green, but I also always thought this could only be done a maximum once per hole, from your first shot around the green after missing GIR.  Does every single chip create its own unique up and down attempt?

In my cases, I messed up my first chip, still off the green, then chipped onto the green, then two putted.  It recorded this as 0 for 2 in up and down.

If I had messed up my first chip, then chipped again, then one putted, would that correctly be 1 for 2 up and down?

Hypothetically, if I messed up a chip, then chipped again and it went in, did I just go 2 for 2 up and down?

-Eric

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For things like that… I recommend trying out their support. Or searching their support site and, if you don't see the answer, writing to them.

Then you can share the answer with the rest of the class. 😄

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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9 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

The only issue I had was that I needed to take multiple penalties to get off the tee on one hole and didn't know how to do that. So, I added the penalties in after the round. (Yeah, I took 5 from the tee. ... ugh.)  

You sound like me. :-$:no:

 

Since we're asking questions - what happens if you don't use the device to mark where the pin is after a two-putt?  Is the pin automatically put in the middle of the green?

Christian

:tmade::titleist:  :leupold:  :aimpoint: :gamegolf:

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4 hours ago, Friz said:

Hypothetically, if I messed up a chip, then chipped again and it went in, did I just go 2 for 2 up and down?

The answer seems to be yes.

I edited my last round to mess around with it. I had 4 up & down out of 14 attempts, so 29%. I took one of the up & downs, removed the putt and added a chip shot. Result is 5 up & down for 33%.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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20 minutes ago, RFKFREAK said:

You sound like me. :-$:no:

 

Since we're asking questions - what happens if you don't use the device to mark where the pin is after a two-putt?  Is the pin automatically put in the middle of the green?

You should be editing your rounds anyway because GPS is not accurate to a foot or less.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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1 minute ago, iacas said:

You should be editing your rounds anyway because GPS is not accurate to a foot or less.

Yeah, I just don't remember where the pin is most of the time

Christian

:tmade::titleist:  :leupold:  :aimpoint: :gamegolf:

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1 minute ago, RFKFREAK said:

Yeah, I just don't remember where the pin is most of the time

All that really matters is the distance of your first putt. I’ve also seen that it will tell you what percentage of putts you leave short or long but I don’t really care about that.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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