KFT Players Penalized for a Cart Ride

[iacas]

Costly Ride - Monday Q Info

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A shuttle ride may have cost a Korn Ferry Member his job

The relevant paragraphs:

Wilson Furr, Alejandro Tosti, and Mason Andersen completed the 18th hole (their ninth) during the second round of the Korn Ferry event played at Lakewood National Golf Club in Florida. The 18th was entirely surrounded by grandstands, with a tunnel for the players to exit. When the three players exited the tunnel, a cart marked "shuttle" was waiting for them. A volunteer was driving it, and he asked the players if they would like a ride. The three players and their caddies climbed on and were driven to the next tee. That decision cost all three a two-stroke penalty and may have cost Wilson Furr his job.

And:

I don't know how, but the Rules of Golf need to determine how to measure intent. By everyone's account, there was no consideration of intent in this case. None of the players gained an advantage outside of walking 300 fewer steps. It was a simple mistake by the volunteer to offer them a ride and a mistake by the players for not double-checking it was OK. And it probably cost a player his job. 

I couldn't disagree more with the last paragraph.

Read the article and let me know what y'all think.

[DeadMan]

3 caddies and 3 players, and nobody thought to check whether this is allowed? Nobody has the player sheet with them to double check?

If you are a professional golfer or caddy, you need to learn the rules.

[boogielicious]

It sounds like a confusing situation. The players should know when they could ride a shuttle. But the KFT needs to figure out why a shuttle was parked there.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

It sounds like a confusing situation. The players should know when they could ride a shuttle. But the KFT needs to figure out why a shuttle was parked there.

The article answers that:

When reached for comment, the Korn Ferry Tour referred to the rules sheet posted in player dining stating on which hole players were allowed on a shuttle. The Tour said the cart was positioned there because it had stopped while the players putted, as the carts were gas-powered and noisy. The Tour didn't state who reported the infraction, though it was likely either a player or a caddie.

The responsibility to know and follow the rules does not lie with the volunteer.

[Vinsk]

Bone head move by the players. Intent? Does a player intend to cheat when he signs an erroneous score card? Does he intend to cheat by carrying 15 clubs when he forgot to remove that prototype club? They broke a rule they should’ve known or at least been suspicious of by hopping a ride. 

[boogielicious]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

The article answers that:

When reached for comment, the Korn Ferry Tour referred to the rules sheet posted in player dining stating on which hole players were allowed on a shuttle. The Tour said the cart was positioned there because it had stopped while the players putted, as the carts were gas-powered and noisy. The Tour didn't state who reported the infraction, though it was likely either a player or a caddie.

The responsibility to know and follow the rules does not lie with the volunteer.

I agree. I just thought that it had the potential to be confusing by having cart transport at all. I can’t think of other tournaments where they do a cart except for playoffs to get back to a tee like 18.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

I agree. I just thought that it had the potential to be confusing by having cart transport at all. I can’t think of other tournaments where they do a cart except for playoffs to get back to a tee like 18.

There are several including at Kapalua.

[StuM]

The problem with “intent” is the determination is subjective and subjectivity leads to inconsistent application. What is to stop a dishonest person from claiming “I did not intend to break a rule”?  Cheaters cheat & cheaters will lie to avoid the consequences.

I am not saying these players lied.

I feel for the players as it sounds it was an honest mistake partially caused by an uniformed volunteer but ultimately the players/caddies are responsible to know the rules and to follow them.

 

 

 

[Denny Bang Bang]

It’s unfortunate, but it is what it is.

 I struggle with some of the “intent” rules, and admittedly I’m certainly no expert.  But at some point lines need to be drawn, otherwise people will overly take an advantage any time they can get away with it.

[iacas]

 

[StuM]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Slightly of v topic:

in addition to the strokes for taking the cart, does Wolfe also get penalized for singing an incorrect card?  A DQ?

[woodzie264]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:47 PM, iacas said:

The responsibility to know and follow the rules does not lie with the volunteer.

Exactly

On 4/22/2023 at 12:37 AM, Vinsk said:

Bone head move by the players. Intent? Does a player intend to cheat when he signs an erroneous score card? Does he intend to cheat by carrying 15 clubs when he forgot to remove that prototype club? They broke a rule they should’ve known or at least been suspicious of by hopping a ride. 

Agreed.

These guys should know better. I do and I’m a crappy amateur who doesn’t even remotely make money off the sport. The “idiocy” wasn’t the rules, but the players’ actions

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, StuM said:

Slightly of v topic:

in addition to the strokes for taking the cart, does Wolfe also get penalized for singing an incorrect card?  A DQ?

Per the Exception to 3.2b(3), a player is not DQ for posting a lower score due to a penalty he was unaware of.  He merely gets the appropriate penalty strokes added.

As for "intent", enforcement of rules is much simpler when actions matter, not some nebulous idea of "intent".  I have a hard time when players are saying "I didn't actually read the rules, but I still don't deserve a penalty", and I have a hard time listening to writers making excuses for players.  Its pretty simple, read the eff-ing rules.    

edit to reflect the correct rule number

[pganapathy]

Let us be blunt here.  Even in amateur tournaments you are not allowed to use carts.  In our club tournaments we have an exception made for senior citizens given that many of them are going to struggle to walk 18 holes, especially given that we have 4 holes with quite steep climb/descents.  But every other golfer in the club knows that using a cart is an automatic DQ.

The only time we are allowed to use carts during a tournament is before we start since we do a shotgun start and many people use the cart to get up to the 4 holes with the climb since it can be difficult and tiring to get to the tee boxes.  Otherwise we don't use it during the tournament unless there is a medical emergency, which can include an upset stomach.

Given this, I find it very difficult to understand how professionals don't know the rule that using a cart during the tournament will be an automatic DQ.  The volunteer just offered a ride.  It is incumbent on the players/caddies to know the rules.  I feel bad for the guys that they may potentially lose their Korn Ferry card but make no mistake, they are completely at fault here

[iacas]

@pganapathy, it’s not a DQ.

I agree with the sentiment, but let’s get all the facts straight.

[pganapathy]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

@pganapathy, it’s not a DQ.

I agree with the sentiment, but let’s get all the facts straight.

My bad, I see that they got a two stroke penalty.

[p1n9183]

But then they take unreasonable slow pace of play and don't get penalized. 
For me both are rules infractions and must be penalized, but only one does.
  

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, p1n9183 said:

But then they take unreasonable slow pace of play and don't get penalized. 
For me both are rules infractions and must be penalized, but only one does.

Pace of play isn't strictly speaking a "rules infraction", its governed under a Committee's Pace of Play Policy.  The problem I see with that is that its absolutely possible to play way too slow and yet still remain within the Policy.  That's a problem with the way they've chosen to write the policy.