Live Electronic Scoring, Markers, Paper Scorecards, Signatures

[snapfade]

20 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

We have warnings on windshield shades to not operate vehicle when in place but we can’t have anyone in the tent present at signing to ensure mistakes like this don’t happen. 🙄

We have those warnings on windshield shades because more than likely some dude in Orlando crashed his car on OBT while having those things still up. 

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, DeadMan said:

I feel strongly that this should remain the way it is now. You cannot rely on unpaid volunteers to keep your score for you. And, speaking from experience, the volunteers are not going to want to ask if the whiff they thought they saw was actually a whiff or a practice swing. There are so many errors on shot link, live leaderboards, and the broadcast that it's hard to trust anything outside of the official scorecard. I think the players would even say they should be ultimately responsible for their own scores. 

 

 

How does this differ from another player in your group marking your scorecard?

[Elmer]

I dont know, I am all for tradition and holding people accountable for their score, however PGA needs to embrace technology.
If you employer score keepers, either on each hole or centrally located with screens golfers no longer need to worry about keeping score.
This means a golfer can not shave strokes.
it would give tournaments a very Big Brother is Watching vibe.

But from a broadcast perspective as well as keeping viewers and building a fan base, nobody wants your star golfers to get DQ'd. You need them competing. 
 

And in what other sport does a player have to keep his own score? in what other sport do we still rely on the human eye and not utilize some form of replay? Just golf apparently 

Even LIV has made some changes to the score keeping procedure. and I hate to admit that are doing something, somewhat right. 

 

si.com

 

[DeadMan]

3 hours ago, Rulesman said:

How does this differ from another player in your group marking your scorecard?

Because markers have responsibilities under the rules of golf, and they are fellow competitors with an interest making sure scores are correctly marked. Neither of those are true for a volunteer scorer.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Vinsk said:

We have warnings on windshield shades to not operate vehicle when in place but we can’t have anyone in the tent present at signing to ensure mistakes like this don’t happen. 🙄

Dude, there were people in the tent. He signed the card without checking it, and ran to the bathroom. He could have said "I have to go to the restroom, I'll sign with when I get back" and that would have been allowed. He did three things: 1) signed the card, 2) turned it in, 3) left the scoring area. That's the definitive point at which it's done.

They have scoring officials in there with you. He didn't avail himself of that.

57 minutes ago, Elmer said:

I dont know, I am all for tradition and holding people accountable for their score, however PGA needs to embrace technology.

There's nothing stopping them (or the Hurricane Junior Golf Tour) from using "technology" and signing a digital scorecard.

57 minutes ago, Elmer said:

If you employer score keepers, either on each hole or centrally located with screens golfers no longer need to worry about keeping score.

The "scorekeeper" part of that is still a human element, and who is more invested in getting the other player's score right among these three:

• the player himself
• his fellow competitor
• a random stranger "volunteering" for the week

There's still a human there.

57 minutes ago, Elmer said:

But from a broadcast perspective as well as keeping viewers and building a fan base, nobody wants your star golfers to get DQ'd. You need them competing.

So he gets to do whatever, f*** the Rules of Golf? It's on him that he was DQed.

57 minutes ago, Elmer said:

And in what other sport does a player have to keep his own score? in what other sport do we still rely on the human eye and not utilize some form of replay? Just golf apparently 

Bad argument. In other sports, the players are actively moving around, and there's ONE ball in play. A scorer can see ALL of the action, and the "points" scored are obvious.

That's not remotely true of a PGA Tour event.

See the NLU Tweet up-thread.

57 minutes ago, Elmer said:

Even LIV has made some changes to the score keeping procedure. and I hate to admit that are doing something, somewhat right.

What?

With their shotgun starts, LIV Golf rounds end all over the course. Now players can sign and attest cards where they finish, not at a central scoring area.

That's hardly a big change, and it's entirely due to their shotgun starts and players not getting congested at the one scoring area. That's not an issue on the PGA Tour.

[Rulesman]

8 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Because markers have responsibilities under the rules of golf, and they are fellow competitors with an interest making sure scores are correctly marked. Neither of those are true for a volunteer scorer.

There is no requirement for a marker to be a fellow competitor. They are simply a "person responsible for entering a player’s score on the player’s scorecard and for certifying that scorecard."

[DeadMan]

6 hours ago, Rulesman said:

There is no requirement for a marker to be a fellow competitor. They are simply a "person responsible for entering a player’s score on the player’s scorecard and for certifying that scorecard."

Okay, sure, but it almost all cases on the PGA Tour (and competitive golf generally), it's a fellow competitor for those reasons.

[saevel25]

A few more issues with getting rid of validating scores, and PGA Tour players doing their own scores. 

1) The PGA Tour does not run all the tournaments. Example, the Masters is run by Augusta National, the PGA Championship is run by PGA of America, The US Open is run by the USGA, and The Open is run by the R&A. How do you handle these situations? What if the US Open and The Open do not want to use electronic scoring? Do you want golfers to bounce between having to keep track of their scores or not? 

2) What if you are on a course where it would be difficult to have score keepers on every hole? 

3) What about the Champions tour, Korn Ferry Tour, PGA Latin America, PGA Tour Canada, PGA Tour China? There are other organizations under the umbrella of the PGA Tour, that use the same rules, that probably can't have the resources to do scoring on every hole. 

4) Will a score keeper be versed in the rules of golf to know how to score the correct penalty? What if they miss a penalty? 

5) Would the players want to validate their scores after a round? I would. 

6) People are like, well other sports have it. How many balls are in play in other sports? Football, one. Basketball, one. Baseball, one. In Golf, if you have a 120 golfer field. You could have over 8500 shots taken on the course. Are we sure the PGA Tour can accurately keep track of all those shots? What if a golfer takes 5 hacks to get out of the trees and the scorekeeper missed 3 of them? 

It is much more reasonable to keep scoring as is. 

I still believe the penalty should be DQ. You can't prove intent of cheating. Not signing for a correct score is worth the highest penalty. 

 

[StuM]

I know of only a few instances where players signed an incorrect score card and my gut is the vast majority of those instances were simple errors and not intentional cheating BUT these are "Pros" and they need to be held to a high standard.  If several thousands of dollars, or millions, is at stake they need to be the professionals they are and take care.  I hate it when it happens but I'll say I agree with keeping the DQ for incorrect score card submitted.

AND, since I am not in favor of bifurcation on other parts of the game I'll also hold myself and other amateurs to the same standard.

Oh, and I do not year Jordan complaining about the rule.  In fact he said "Rules are Rules and I take full responsibility".  Also, see Scheffler's comments near the end of the attached.  I think this debate is more about fans & the media complaining and not so much about the Professionals complaining.

Following Jordan Spieth DQ, debate rages over incorrect-scorecard rule

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Spieth was disqualified after signing an incorrect scorecard following Round 2.

 

 

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

5) Would the players want to validate their scores after a round? I would. 

They’d want to check ALL the time. Like every hole. With a volunteer or something.

1 hour ago, StuM said:

Oh, and I do not year Jordan complaining about the rule.  In fact he said "Rules are Rules and I take full responsibility".  Also, see Scheffler's comments near the end of the attached.  I think this debate is more about fans & the media complaining and not so much about the Professionals complaining.

Correct — most of the bitching is by fans and media.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, StuM said:

Oh, and I do not year Jordan complaining about the rule.  In fact he said "Rules are Rules and I take full responsibility".  Also, see Scheffler's comments near the end of the attached.  I think this debate is more about fans & the media complaining and not so much about the Professionals complaining.

He was complaining because it impacted him. 

[Ty_Webb]

I don't think it's asking a lot to have players attest that their scores are what they scored and the rest of the field can rely on that information. If I was coming to the last hole and needed a birdie to tie the leader in the clubhouse, so I take on a risky shot and it falls through and I make double, I'm not going to be super excited to find out I was actually one shot ahead because the leader in the clubhouse had signed for a wrong score. 

I know this isn't an "all the penalties are like this..." thing, but generally speaking I think the idea of the penalty is to reflect what it would take to correct the situation. Telling other players that your score is better than it actually was isn't something that can be "fixed" by adding a stroke or two to your score. Hence DQ is the appropriate penalty. It's also extremely unusual that someone actually gets DQ'd for signing for a wrong score. The reason is because it's not hard to get it right.

[Vinsk]

‘Hey Jordan, here’s the final score we have for you…what’s your card show? Are you ready to sign it? Unfathomable process.

[StuM]

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

He was complaining because it impacted him. 

Did I miss where Jordan complained about the rule?  I know he was not happy it happened but from what I read he accepted it and is moving on.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

‘Hey Jordan, here’s the final score we have for you…what’s your card show? Are you ready to sign it? Unfathomable process.

You're arguing in bad faith here. You aren't responding to the points made by others, and just keep saying the same thing.

You're responsible for 18 scores. Not a total. And if a volunteer or someone (who often screw up, far more often than fellow competitors do) is in charge of the score, the pro is going to be checking that score all. the. time.

The simple facts are:

• Pros are rarely DQed for this.
• Volunteers and ShotLink and so on mess up FAR more frequently.
• You only care because it's Jordan Spieth.
• Jordan admits it's his fault.
• The way it is now is really f***ing simple.
• The way it is now is the way it's done at every event, including those events where ShotLink is not on every hole (like Pebble Beach), and at every level of the game.

26 minutes ago, StuM said:

Did I miss where Jordan complained about the rule?  I know he was not happy it happened but from what I read he accepted it and is moving on.

Jordan didn't, nor did Scottie in the article. Nor did Rory.