What Does the Average Weekend Golfer Shoot?

[Dave2512]

It's a 4i for me but I have SGI long irons. Which is something we really haven't discussed. I see a lot of guys out there using equipment that hurts more than helps. My HI dropped quickly after making the switch to more forgiving irons. It's not so much the unrealistic type that went out and bought shiny new blades but the guy with a hodgepodge of seemingly random clubs in the bag. I see guys with mixed grips, some are jumbo oversize and others look standard, cords mixed with whatever. Though that guy is usually quirky across the board. There's a ranger at my former home course that looks likes he's playing Twister when he putts. Which I find odd because he is a terrible putter. You'd think it would be obvious it isn't working. But he also does that weird jumping at the ball thing where he ends up on his back foot with his left foot moving all over the place. He's a trooper though. I was playing there 3-4 days a week and he was usually there too.

[kw purp]

If I was to make as many generalizations as you do, I would say that someone making as many inaccurate, ignorant statements about golf could not be a 6 handicap golfer and may not even be more than an occasional golfer, but is more likely a bored individual who likes to troll internet forums.  However, assuming you are who you claim to be, you are nonetheless obviously very much lacking in knowledge about how most people play golf.  By your standards, 80+% of golfers must be idiots or morons.  I can assure you that golfers who keep the ball on or near the fairway nearly every shot are in a fairly small minority.  You have a very naive, black-or-white view of golf - there are those who think as you do and the rest are imbeciles in your very narrow world. The juvenile name-calling and extreme opinions make it seem as if you are compensating for some sort of inadequacies in your life.

The reason I've only broken 90 once isn't because I lack skills to hit various shots, it is because I am inconsistent, largely from lack of practice.  I've had a busy schedule this summer and have only had clubs in my hands once in the past month, at a range.  It's not unheard of for me to have pars or bogeys on half the holes in a round.  But I seldom go a round without a few blow-up holes that sky-rocket my scores.  I think a lot of golfers who are scoring in the 90-105 range are similar - I don't think I stand out as some sort of anomaly on the golf course.

One of the things I like the most about golf is that unlike just about any other sport, every so often, I can sometimes hit a shot that is so good that that I could beat a pro - if I took the ten best golfers in the world, dropped their balls from the same spot and gave them each 2 tries, my shot still might be the best of the lot.  A few years back I sky-ed a 5-W off the tee, landing it only 140 yards out in the fairway on a short par-4 with a 90* dog leg right with trees just blocking my view of the green.  I was about 190 yards out, the green was about the smallest I've ever seen, with a pretty steep hill banking the left side, and the "smart" play would have been to hit wedge, wedge.  But instead, I visualized a fade into the hill, banking the ball onto the green.  I loosened up my grip, opened up the clubface, aimed left of the green and swung my 4-iron.  The ball gently curved around the corner, bounced off the hill, and came to a rest less than 3 feet from the pin, exactly as I visualized it.  Even though I might have to hit ten more shots from that spot before I even got another ball on the green, I remember that shot.  I don't remember shots where I successfully laid up in front of a creek instead of going for the green.  I'd rather shoot a 99 but have two memorable holes than shoot a 91 but not remember a single shot the following week.  So even though it may cause some internet golf opinionboi  to call me an "idiot" or "moron," some of the time I'm still going to try to hit the 280 yard draw out to the middle of the fairway, the 205 yard 4-iron onto the green, shots I know I'm capable of hitting because I've hit them before (in the real world, on a golf course, not an internet exaggeration), even if I recognize that odds may be less than 50% that I'll nail that shot.

Say whatever you want about me. None of the people I play with play this way. I do not play with any 30 HCP players so maybe that is part of it. I did no juvenile name calling at all. Just called it like I see it, not picking on anyone in particular. As I acknowledged multiple times, I am not any good at golf either. 6 HCP doesn't mean jack. I get doubles and triples,

You are correct, you do not lack the skills to hit that shot. You lack the skills to consistently hit that shot. Anyone can make a 3 pointer in basketball, not many can shoot a high percentage.

If you want to go for the big time shots then go for it, but don't act like well I am a 26 HCP, but if I played smarter than I would be better. That is where this discussions started. The other guy was making this excuse pretty strongly.

Basically saying I am better than my score. No you are what you score. It's a weak excuse. A legitimate excuse is I am 70 years old and have loss some of the flexibility I had in years past. I make dumb decisions is not an excuse.

[jetsknicks1]

[U][/U] Slightly off topic, but I can't let it pass.... The ball tends to fly further when humidity is high, not shorter, because humid air is less dense. Somewhat contrary to what you might expect. Back on topic now.......

Thanks a lot Dave! I've been using the humidity as my excuse for short drives all my life. :-D

[iacas]

Erik even listed in a post before that the average 18 hc player could become a single digit player if they worked on 3 things, one of which was course management and none of which were ball striking.

There was a bit more to that than that, and ball striking is the single most important skill to have in lowering your handicap… and the post quoted was quite old (2005? 2008?), so my opinion shifted slightly since then, but yes, course management can be used and improved by 18 handicappers. That much is definitely still true.

[Golfingdad]

Say whatever you want about me. None of the people I play with play this way. I do not play with any 30 HCP players so maybe that is part of it. ...  Just called it like I see it

But the problem comes from you taking your anecdotal information from the people you play with and applying it across the board to everybody.  You are not calling it like you see it, because those two "its" are completely different things.  One is your group of friends, the other is everybody else.  You are generalizing "IT" based on how you see " it ."

I did no juvenile name calling at all.

Yes, you did.  You made the assumption that since there are no golfers you play with who fit that group, then that group must not exist ... unless they are "idiots" or "morons."

Yes, it was indirect name calling (you didn't say "wisguy, you're an idiot!") but it was still name calling.

[CR McDivot]

The average weekend player can't drive 230 in the fairway. They can't hit the green from 150, 100, or even 80 or 60. They put like crap.

They don't have to continue to suck. They need to learn to strike the ball consistently. They need to learn their limitations as well as their strengths, and manage the course accordingly.

In other words they need to apply themselves to play better.

As do we all!

[Jeremie Boop]

If you want to go for the big time shots then go for it, but don't act like well I am a 26 HCP, but if I played smarter than I would be better. That is where this discussions started. The other guy was making this excuse pretty strongly.

Basically saying I am better than my score. No you are what you score. It's a weak excuse. A legitimate excuse is I am 70 years old and have loss some of the flexibility I had in years past. I make dumb decisions is not an excuse.

You keep saying that, however, it is completely accurate to say if they played smarter they would SCORE better which would lower their HCP. Depending on the person it may be as little as a couple strokes or 10 strokes on any given round.

There was a bit more to that than that, and ball striking is the single most important skill to have in lowering your handicap… and the post quoted was quite old (2005? 2008?), so my opinion shifted slightly since then, but yes, course management can be used and improved by 18 handicappers. That much is definitely still true.

I understand it was an older post and there was more to it, however the basis of your "a,b,c" improvements was focusing on shortgame, putting, and course management will usually bring an 18 hc to 9. Unless I'm not remembering it correctly. As I said, ball striking is very important in becoming a low hc to scratch player but better decisions on the course will save you strokes immediately and improving ball striking is a process that you have to work on for awhile in most cases.

But the problem comes from you taking your anecdotal information from the people you play with and applying it across the board to everybody.  You are not calling it like you see it, because those two "its" are completely different things.  One is your group of friends, the other is everybody else.  You are generalizing "IT" based on how you see "it."

Yes, you did.  You made the assumption that since there are no golfers you play with who fit that group, then that group must not exist ... unless they are "idiots" or "morons."

Yes, it was indirect name calling (you didn't say "wisguy, you're an idiot!") but it was still name calling.

Actually, I believe the idiot comment was directed towards me as were a lot of his comments.

[14ledo81]

Basically saying I am better than my score. No you are what you score. It's a weak excuse. A legitimate excuse is I am 70 years old and have loss some of the flexibility I had in years past. I make dumb decisions is not an excuse.

If you "know" you make dumb decisions, and "know" the correct decision, but continue to make the dumb decision, then I would agree that you can't use that as an excuse.

But, what about the guy who does not know the correct decision.  Based upon Erik's example in the other thread, many people (myself included) did not know the smart play.  I am willing to bet you did not either.  I am also willing to bet that if Erik (or someone well versed in course management) would caddy for you, and you listened, you could drop a few strokes as well.

[Jeremie Boop]

If you "know" you make dumb decisions, and "know" the correct decision, but continue to make the dumb decision, then I would agree that you can't use that as an excuse.

But, what about the guy who does not know the correct decision.  Based upon Erik's example in the other thread, many people (myself included) did not know the smart play.  I am willing to bet you did not either.  I am also willing to bet that if Erik (or someone well versed in course management) would caddy for you, and you listened, you could drop a few strokes as well.

However, if someone were to watch a video of someone playing golf and making these poor decisions they'd tell you "if they played these shots differently they'd have saved x strokes and shot xx". It's not any different really than a pro who says "if I had played that hole differently I'd have scored better". They typically know that they are playing a lower percentage shot, even for them, but it's ok because they are pros, apparently. To me, it's a much poorer excuse when a pro goes for a low percentage shot than the average/weekend golfer.

[kw purp]

You keep saying that, however, it is completely accurate to say if they played smarter they would SCORE better which would lower their HCP. Depending on the person it may be as little as a couple strokes or 10 strokes on any given round.

I understand it was an older post and there was more to it, however the basis of your "a,b,c" improvements was focusing on shortgame, putting, and course management will usually bring an 18 hc to 9. Unless I'm not remembering it correctly. As I said, ball striking is very important in becoming a low hc to scratch player but better decisions on the course will save you strokes immediately and improving ball striking is a process that you have to work on for awhile in most cases.

Actually, I believe the idiot comment was directed towards me as were a lot of his comments.

This is the equivalent of me saying well if I hit better iron shots and made more putts I would score better which would lower my handicap. That's great, but I don't so my handicap is what it is.

But whatever helps you sleep at night man.

[Jeremie Boop]

This is the equivalent of me saying well if I hit better iron shots and made more putts I would score better which would lower my handicap. That's great, but I don't so my handicap is what it is.

But whatever helps you sleep at night man.

Rofl, you are hilarious. It's not the same thing as those, but whatever you need to say to make yourself feel superior. Have at it. Although I'm sure you've said MANY times that "if I had made a few more putts I would have shot *whatever*". If you say you haven't or don't you are a flat out liar.

[iacas]

Rofl, you are hilarious. It's not the same thing as those, but whatever you need to say to make yourself feel superior. Have at it. Although I'm sure you've said MANY times that "if I had made a few more putts I would have shot *whatever*". If you say you haven't or don't you are a flat out liar.

The point remains: if they say they could have shot better if they had played smarter, why don't they?

[Jeremie Boop]

The point remains: if they say they could have shot better if they had played smarter, why don't they?

You know as well as I do why, because we are amatures/weekend warriors, we don't always choose the most wise course of action. We tend to "think we have this shot" when we don't. I know there are times when I make a shot and then afterwords I'll think, I should have just punched out, even if I pull it off. As I've been taking more time to think about the shot beforehand I make fewer of these mistakes, however frustration sometimes clouds judgement. Hindsight is 20/20, as the saying goes. Are you going to tell me there's an easier/quicker way to save at least some strokes per round than better decision making, because I really don't think there is. At least for people of higher handicaps that is.

[iacas]

You know as well as I do why, because we are amatures/weekend warriors, we don't always choose the most wise course of action. We tend to "think we have this shot" when we don't. I know there are times when I make a shot and then afterwords I'll think, I should have just punched out, even if I pull it off. As I've been taking more time to think about the shot beforehand I make fewer of these mistakes, however frustration sometimes clouds judgement. Hindsight is 20/20, as the saying goes. Are you going to tell me there's an easier/quicker way to save at least some strokes per round than better decision making, because I really don't think there is. At least for people of higher handicaps that is.

No, I don't know why. Ignorance? Stupidity? Lack of willpower? Too much confidence?

There are plenty of reasons why someone continually does the stupid. The fact of the matter is that just as a swing change will lower your scores and CHANGE who you are as a golfer, so too is a mental change required and it too will change who you are as a golfer.

So just do it. You don't get to say "I'd be a better golfer if…" regardless of what follows. You are what you are. If you want to be something different, it takes more than hindsight. It takes change.

/toughlove

P.S. This may be your point all along, I don't know. I didn't read closely enough to know which side you were on - I just saw you and kw going on about this topic. Maybe this is your side. Maybe it's not. I don't know.

[saevel25]

The point remains: if they say they could have shot better if they had played smarter, why don't they?

They rather think it was a shot they shouldn't have attempted than accept their swing is just that inconsistent.

Lets say they hit mid iron over water, they hit it slightly fat, it gets in the water. Instead of knowing they hit the ball fat, they blame the decision on poor club selection. Maybe they thought they should have clubbed up one.

[Jeremie Boop]

No, I don't know why. Ignorance? Stupidity? Lack of willpower? Too much confidence?

There are plenty of reasons why someone continually does the stupid. The fact of the matter is that just as a swing change will lower your scores and CHANGE who you are as a golfer, so too is a mental change required and it too will change who you are as a golfer.

So just do it. You don't get to say "I'd be a better golfer if…" regardless of what follows. You are what you are. If you want to be something different, it takes more than hindsight. It takes change.

/toughlove

P.S. This may be your point all along, I don't know. I didn't read closely enough to know which side you were on - I just saw you and kw going on about this topic. Maybe this is your side. Maybe it's not. I don't know.

My point was/is that course management is the easiest/quickest way to reduce scores. It is a valid statement to say "I'd be a better golfer if i" or "I'd have shot a better score if I" not to say "I'm a better golfer, but I" or "My score isn't accurate because I made bad decisions".  You are completely correct in that the only way to lower the scores is to change, which is exactly what I've been trying to put into my game. I used to just pick a shot and hit it without weighing the options/consequences. Now I've actually made a concerted effort to take the time to think about the best course of action is. I don't always do this but I've gotten a lot better at it. It's helped me several times. KW's always seemed to be that only "idiots" would be able to improve their game by any significant margin by improving course management/decision making.

[inthecup]

On any given day I will shoot between an 85 and 95 on a course with a rating of 72.5 and a slope in the mid 130's.  That slope and rating I believe is above average.

I started keeping a handicap is 2010 and unlike some it took me time to figure it out.  The biggest revelation was to shorten my swing and swing at what feels like 50% but is 80% instead of 110%.

I now club up and make accuracy my number one priority.  At my club, the people I play with shoot in the low 80's to mid 90's.

[Meltdwhiskey]

The point remains: if they say they could have shot better if they had played smarter, why don't they?

I think this is the central question.  And a great one.  I ask myself this all the time - and kick myself for times I didn't do the "smart" thing.  And I can think of a few possible answers

1. Some would rather make that miracle shot or super-long drive than score well - you're a Go For It guy like the Tin Cup guy

2. Emotions get the better of you when in trouble.  The thought of double-bogey is killing you, so you try a miracle that puts you in even worse shape than you were in.  Now you get triple.

3. Despite knowing that it is a low percentage play - you just feel like it is your day

4. You haven't really analyzed the game enough - relative to your skill level - to realize that it is a low percentage play. You see players do things on TV or on the course and you feel you should play that type of game as well.  But you are way out over your skis to be trying that shot.

Just some guesses.  I'd love to hear some answers from some of you who feel you could shoot lower with better management.  Mine would probably be #2. I play a really conservative game of golf and feel I actually play really good course management.  I think it actually improves my HC as compared to actual golfing ability. But I can still try to get too fancy to avoid a big number.