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Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?


Greatest Golfer (GOAT)  

222 members have voted

  1. 1. Tiger or Jack: Who's the greatest golfer?

    • Tiger Woods is the man
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    • Jack Nicklaus is my favorite
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Posted

Good post.  I've been thinking about what Scottie would have to do to get into the greatest ever conversation and it led me to a question.  Which was a bigger disparity in strength of field, Jack to Tiger or Tiger to Scottie?  

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Posted

In terms of years alone Tiger was born about 35 years after Jack and Scottie 20 years after Tiger. But Scottie didn't come out of the gates as fast, so it's more like 25 years between eras (Tiger late 1996 to Scottie 2022).

Anyway, obviously Tiger and Scottie's competition is more similar. No disrespect to Jack but the competition in the Brititsh Open especially was weak up until the mid 80s or 90s. The rest of the fields weren't very global either, not compared to today at least. 


Posted
  On 9/6/2024 at 5:28 PM, Golfnutgalen said:

I've done a lot of number crunching over the years.

This is pretty astonishing. Up until the end of 2009 Tiger played in 253 PGA Tour events. That is including all starts as an amateur. He won 71 of them or 28%. 

Do you want to guess how many events it took Jack or even Sam Snead to win title #71? It took Jack 425 (16% rate) and Snead 381 (19%). Jack was 42 by then, Snead I think 43. Those of course are the only players to ever win 65 or more tour events. That was not a typo, it took Jack 172 more tries and about 9 more years to reach Tiger's figure.

People don't realize how insane Tiger's win percentage was. 

If Scottie Scheffler can have 5 more consecutive seasons like this year it would put his career rate at 23%. And Scottie just had the best non-tiger season in modern history. 

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In a game with a field of 156 players and with as much random variance as there is in it, these numbers are absolutely mindboggling.

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Posted (edited)
  On 9/6/2024 at 6:10 PM, Golfnutgalen said:

In terms of years alone Tiger was born about 35 years after Jack and Scottie 20 years after Tiger. But Scottie didn't come out of the gates as fast, so it's more like 25 years between eras (Tiger late 1996 to Scottie 2022).

Anyway, obviously Tiger and Scottie's competition is more similar. No disrespect to Jack but the competition in the Brititsh Open especially was weak up until the mid 80s or 90s. The rest of the fields weren't very global either, not compared to today at least. 

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Yeah, IMO there are (at least) two different aspects to the strength of field issue. 

One is organic, ie, the quality of play increases because of better training methods, equipment, quality of courses, etc. 

The other is structural, how the universe of players widened with to growth and inclusion of minority and foreign players, faster and cheaper transportation, more stringent qualifying - like eliminating so many club pros from the PGA, or making it more accessible for top European pros to qualify for the US Open by having qualifying in Europe, and the general increase in the sheer number of players.  There was a time when there were NO events where substantially all of the best players played.  Now you have, at a minimum, the 4 majors and the Players where that happens.

Between Tigers prime era and now that second aspect hasn't changed that much.  Most of the increase in depth of field for Scottie reflects the first aspect I listed, IMO.

Edited by turtleback
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But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Posted (edited)
  On 9/6/2024 at 6:58 PM, turtleback said:

Yeah, IMO there are (at least) two different aspects to the strength of field issue. 

One is organic, ie, the quality of play increases because of better training methods, equipment, quality of courses, etc. 

The other is structural, how the universe of players widened with to growth and inclusion of minority and foreign players, faster and cheaper transportation, more stringent qualifying - like eliminating so many club pros from the PGA, or making it more accessible for top European pros to qualify for the US Open by having qualifying in Europe, and the general increase in the sheer number of players.  There was a time when there were NO events where substantially all of the best players played.  Now you have, at a minimum, the 4 majors and the Players where that happens.

Between Tigers prime era and now that second aspect hasn't changed that much.  Most of the increase in depth of field for Scottie reflects the first aspect I listed, IMO.

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And the one thing I forgot to mention is Tiger obviously won the Masters and Zozo not too long ago, so there's no question that Tiger would still be great today. People like to say he didn't have longevity and yet that's 24 years between wins. But obviously Tiger's prime was more like 1996-2013 about 17 years. 

Indeed, it's remarkable that Michael Campbell for instance even got into the 2005 US Open. If I remember right the only reason he tried to qualify is they had European qualifying near his home so there was nothing to lose. This was the first year that European qualifying was introduced and it certainly affected the outcome of the event.  

  On 9/6/2024 at 6:48 PM, Ty_Webb said:

In a game with a field of 156 players and with as much random variance as there is in it, these numbers are absolutely mindboggling.

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Indeed, they are unprecedented. 

Edited by Golfnutgalen

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Posted
  On 9/6/2024 at 5:49 PM, turtleback said:

Good post.  I've been thinking about what Scottie would have to do to get into the greatest ever conversation and it led me to a question.  Which was a bigger disparity in strength of field, Jack to Tiger or Tiger to Scottie?  

Expand  

Jack to Tiger, easily. Diminishing returns, or whatever, with the rates of expansion and the top 200 players or whatever remaining constant.

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Posted
  On 9/6/2024 at 7:21 PM, Golfnutgalen said:

And the one thing I forgot to mention is Tiger obviously won the Masters and Zozo not too long ago, so there's no question that Tiger would still be great today. People like to say he didn't have longevity and yet that's 24 years between wins. But obviously Tiger's prime was more like 1996-2013 about 17 years. 

Indeed, it's remarkable that Michael Campbell for instance even got into the 2005 US Open. If I remember right the only reason he tried to qualify is they had European qualifying near his home so there was nothing to lose. This was the first year that European qualifying was introduced and it certainly affected the outcome of the event.  

Indeed, they are unprecedented. 

Expand  

Michael Campbell qualified in a playoff at my club in England (Walton Heath) - I watched the playoff. It was the first time they did it.

That one, Trevor Immelman would not have been playing in the Masters back in even the early 90s and Rich Beem I'm pretty sure would have been selling carphones back in the day. That's three people who beat Tiger into second who just would not have been even playing back in Jack's time. Probably add KJ Choi to that list. There were a handful of foreign players playing in Jack's day - Player obviously and Isao Aoki, but they were pretty few and far between. I know it was always a talking point on British television in the early 90s about how there were only a handful of European players who got invites to the Masters. It used to be for tournament winners on the PGA Tour and that was about it. Now it's all sorts of top 50 this and top 50 that.

Having said that, I played in a captain pro challenge at Walton and the captain was a guy called Michael Lunt. He played a few Walker Cups - VERY good player, although he was well past his best playing days when I played with him. He told me that he played in something like the 1959 Walker Cup and got a letter in the mail from the Chairman at Augusta. It was an invite to the Masters. He had no idea what it was and nor did any of his fellow Walker Cuppers (they were all invited to play). So none of them went (it would have been quite an undertaking at the time). I think he played in four Walker Cups all told. After his second one, one of his teammates decided to go, played in it and came back and told them all they had to do it if they got the chance, but they never invited them again so he never got to play. If I was him I don't know how I'd be able to sleep at night after that.

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Posted

Another one in Tiger's time is Y.E. Yang, who cost him a PGA.

And another European in Jack's prime was Tony Jacklin who won both a US and British Open.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Posted
  On 7/8/2025 at 10:20 PM, csh19792001 said:

A: Quite possibly neither! Ben Hogan! 

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No, sorry. Even fewer golfers than Jack, and significantly fewer than Tiger.

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Posted
  On 7/9/2025 at 12:24 AM, ChetlovesMer said:

82258490-3d4e-4de8-9352-c9434bdbe4a9_text.gif.0c2bde81a09dd7c7535f6ed6383dd673.gif

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No.

 

  On 7/9/2025 at 12:24 AM, ChetlovesMer said:

82258490-3d4e-4de8-9352-c9434bdbe4a9_text.gif.0c2bde81a09dd7c7535f6ed6383dd673.gif

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Hogan got hit by a bus head on collision February 2nd, 1949.

Prior to that, in his career, here  are his career totals/rates:

Tournaments: 227 (19 per year)
Cuts: 214 out of 227 (94.3% cut made rate)
Wins: 51 (22.5% win rate- 6.4 wins per year)
Runner Ups: 37
Thirds: 23

Top 3%: 110 top 3s (227 tournaments entered)- 48.45%

After the accident in Feb 2nd, 1949:

Tournaments: 73 (3.6/year)
Cuts: 71 of 71 (100%)
Wins: 13 (17.8% win rate- 2.1 wins/year)
Runner Ups: 7
Thirds: 4

Top 3%: 24 top 3s (73 tournaments entered)- 32.87%

He was only able to play in 300 tournaments, career, because he got hit by that bus.

Nicklaus was able to play in 578 events.

Hell even Tiger got to play in 378 events.

 

Woods, Nicklaus, Hogan Through Age 43:

Majors:

Jack:
92 Majors Played
18.4% Win Rate
48.9% Top 3 Rate
58.7% Top 5 Rate

Hogan:
37 Majors Played
24.3% Win Rate
43.2% Top 3 Rate
54% Top 5 Rate

Woods:
84 Majors Played
17.9% Win Rate
30.9% Top 3 Rate
38.1% Top 5 Rate

 

All Tournaments, Through Age 43:

Jack:
417 Tournaments 
17.0% Win Rate
38.1% Top 3 Rate

Hogan:
254 Tournaments
24.8% Win Rate
51.2% Top 3 Rate

Woods:
358 Tournaments 
23.1% Win Rate
36.6% Top 3 Rate

Now, let’s consider if Hogan wasn’t nearly paralyzed getting in a near fatal car accident at age 35……

Oh and, of course, he also missed 3 prime seasons in WWII.


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Posted
  On 7/9/2025 at 3:19 PM, csh19792001 said:

Now, let’s consider if Hogan wasn’t nearly paralyzed getting in a near fatal car accident at age 35……

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Let’s consider then if Tiger hadn’t had all those surgeries then too. I’m thinking 21 majors and about 100 total PGA victories against much stiffer competition.

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Posted
  On 7/9/2025 at 3:19 PM, csh19792001 said:

Now, let’s consider if Hogan wasn’t nearly paralyzed getting in a near fatal car accident at age 35……

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Now lets consider if Hogan played during an era in which more than 500 people on the whole planet played golf. 🤣

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Posted
  On 7/9/2025 at 3:41 PM, boogielicious said:

Let’s consider then if Tiger hadn’t had all those surgeries then too. I’m thinking 21 majors and about 100 total PGA victories against much stiffer competition.

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Bingo… 

  On 7/9/2025 at 4:45 PM, ChetlovesMer said:

Now lets consider if Hogan played during an era in which more than 500 people on the whole planet played golf. 🤣

Expand  

… and bingo.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Posted
  On 7/9/2025 at 6:08 PM, csh19792001 said:

Hilarious. Completely ridiculous hyperbole. 

Expand  

Of course. I was just exaggerating for fun. 

At the start of Hogan's era it is estimated that roughly half a million Americans played golf. By the end of his era, about 3.5 million. 
During Tiger's era roughly 19 million at the start and nearly 30 million by the end of it. 

To look at it another way during Hogan's era less than 0.5% of all high schools had a golf team. Compared to nearly half of all high schools during Tiger's era. If you really want to see a big difference more than 25 times as many Junior High Schools had golf teams during Tiger's era than did High Schools during Hogan's era. 

And this says nothing of international competition. Up until 1974 the British used a different golf ball than did the Americans. It wasn't until 1990 that the Brits officially outlawed their "small ball". It wasn't until the 1960's that Americans really started to play in Europe at all. Very few Americans played The Open from the 1930's until the 1960's. The travel sucked and the prize money wasn't worth the trip. Remember air travel to Europe wasn't really a thing until at least the mid-1950's. Before that you would spend 2 weeks at sea. 

It is simply not arguable that Hogan faced any where near as stiff of competition as did Tiger. In golf, yes, you play against the course, but the lowest score wins. It's much easier to win if far FAR fewer players are playing. 

Personally, I'd suggest that the competition was way better vs Tiger than vs Jack. But at least that's a discussion. I'm sorry but arguing for Hogan's era it's no contest. Tiger definitively and definitely and by every measure faced tougher competition than did Hogan. 

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