Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[Vinsk]

I am 100% convinced that a scratch golfer would beat even the top LPGA players if they played the same course at same tees. I love golf and watch it excessively....all tours men and women. I've seen a par 4 236yds with the women. Ridiculous. Watching Inbee Park barely put any effort into her slow mechanical swing...often even looking away from the ball before striking it perplexes me. But the more I watch many others I notice most of them hit the ball the way men hit a punch 7 iron to get in a good spot or hit from trees to get back into the fairway. The distances are so silly they can play that way. Gently swing the driver and land it out there about 220. Then they're hitting into a softened up green with much less speed compared to the PGA. Hey, they could run circles around me but a scratch male golfer? He would win several tournaments and easily keep his card. Remember , an 11yr old girl qualified for their open. I'm not saying the women are a joke. Not at all. But they are not being nearly challenged enough: The courses are way too dumbed down to make them look amazing so Judy Rankin can relentlessly make comments that they compare to the men with talent. They don't. I also think scratch golfers are more than 2 clubs better than even the best LPGA players. I very often see the ladies hitting 130-135 7irons. I'm an 8hcp and that's my wedge. It's more apparent in the longer clubs. But either case, 2 clubs is substantial. I don't mean for this to be a LPGA bashing but I'm just realistic when I say I believe the PGA players are exponentially better than the women so I feel a male scratch golfer would reap the same advantages if he played the same course and tees as the ladies did. I've just watched so much golf including LPGA and so often it just seems like they're lightly swinging and hitting low straight shots...similar to the way the 80yrd old guys at their clubs play. I don't see the women really cranking it up and hitting big draws or fades... or clearing tree lines. I've played with many scratch male golfers and if they played the ladies tees....they'd easily shoot under par. Well...my 2 cents.

[DrvFrShow]

You realize what you're comparing is upper body strength between sexes in addition to golf technique, right?

[Vinsk]

Well, ok. But it doesn't matter what I'm comparing. I'm saying a scratch male golfer would do well in the LPGA playing their tees. Heck, an 11yr old girl beat quite a few pros in round one of the women's US OPEN. Lexi Thompson shot 70 on round one....Lucy shot 78. What's the upper body strength difference between those two? The fact that an 11yr old old girl qualified for the women's US Open speaks volumes about the LPGA. The fact that a 17yr old is the #1 player speaks loudly as well. What I'd like to see is make the holes 20 yards longer but more importantly....give them the same greens and pin locations as the men. Is our upper body strength the reason the men have more challenging greens? Judy Rankin said of the U.S. Open last year.." They've really softened the greens up because women hit the ball on a lower trajectory than the men so this way they can get the ball to hold". Horseshit. They're professional golfers! If the greens are firm and they have to play a shot high....so be it. Chipping and putting don't get imbalanced among men and women because of upper body strength. A scratch male golfer on the LPGA could hit 3 wood off the tee and have a wedge or sandwedge to the plush, weakly guarded easy pin location. And the par 5's would be practically a given birdie.

[Lihu]

Well, ok. But it doesn't matter what I'm comparing. I'm saying a scratch male golfer would do well in the LPGA playing their tees. Heck, an 11yr old girl beat quite a few pros in round one of the women's US OPEN. Lexi Thompson shot 70 on round one....Lucy shot 78. What's the upper body strength difference between those two? The fact that an 11yr old old girl qualified for the women's US Open speaks volumes about the LPGA. The fact that a 17yr old is the #1 player speaks loudly as well. What I'd like to see is make the holes 20 yards longer but more importantly....give them the same greens and pin locations as the men. Is our upper body strength the reason the men have more challenging greens? Judy Rankin said of the U.S. Open last year.." They've really softened the greens up because women hit the ball on a lower trajectory than the men so this way they can get the ball to hold". Horseshit. They're professional golfers! If the greens are firm and they have to play a shot high....so be it. Chipping and putting don't get imbalanced among men and women because of upper body strength. A scratch male golfer on the LPGA could hit 3 wood off the tee and have a wedge or sandwedge to the plush, weakly guarded easy pin location. And the par 5's would be practically a given birdie.

These seem like pretty reasonable things to do. Btw, I have met one high school lady golfer in my home town who can easily beat a male scratch golfer, and I doubt she's the only one. The talent is out there, but they don't look like super models.

[Vinsk]

Well sure. I've also known many, many scratch male golfers who if they played the women's tees....they would murder the course. The courses the women play with their tee positions, soft greens and simple pin positions...aren't a far leap from these scratch guys playing black tees and fast greens.. And if any leap...I think it would favor being easier for the guys.

[Lihu]

Well sure. I've also known many, many scratch male golfers who if they played the women's tees....they would murder the course. The courses the women play with their tee positions, soft greens and simple pin positions...aren't a far leap from these scratch guys playing black tees and fast greens.. And if any leap...I think it would favor being easier for the guys.

Sure, if you take 4-5 clubs off all your approaches, that would make things easier. I guess the part of your proposal i was agreeing with regard to lengthening the holes by 20 yards and harder greens are the ones that I think will make the LPGA a stronger field. I strongly believe that there will still be many ladies that will still be able to shoot low scores on these tougher courses, but very few of the current players will be in that field. Further, that it would attract stronger and even more athletic women to golf.

[Jake Goodman]

Btw, I have met one high school lady golfer in my home town who can easily beat a male scratch golfer, and I doubt she's the only one. The talent is out there, but they don't look like super models.

Our local University ladies team practice in my club and I see them playing quit often. They are nice looking, young, "small" girls and they play from the tips (6801). I play from the whites (6360) and the girls are most of the time further then me from the tee. I am not a long hitter, but I am not short either. They are good.

[jsgolfer]

Well sure. I've also known many, many scratch male golfers who if they played the women's tees....they would murder the course.

The courses the women play with their tee positions, soft greens and simple pin positions...aren't a far leap from these scratch guys playing black tees and fast greens.. And if any leap...I think it would favor being easier for the guys.

Except I'm not sure they play the true women's tees, I think they play a melding of the different tees, but I do think that a really good scratch golfer would hold their own on the LPGA tour.  At the current LPGA tournament in Thailand, even par would be good enough Tied for 42, and most of the ladies driving average is 250-ish, some lower a couple high.  but a good scratch golfer I think would probably be 30+ yards further.  The course in Thailand they are playing is 6,500 Yds.

So that corresponds to the Blue tees.  I would think a good scratch player would do well.  not saying they would win every tournament, but I'm guessing they would do for the most part pretty well.

[Vinsk]

That's irrelevant. Numbers don't lie. Only 16 players on the LPGA average 260yds+ drives. Don't forget we're talking SCRATCH male golfers....I'm an 8 hcp and can easily out drive the longest hitter on the LPGA. Also, I assume you're agreeing with me on the changes. I mean if you're saying college girls are at least smoking you off the tee....then the professionals could certainly handle toughening up their courses.

[Vinsk]

Basically I feel the LPGA is saying " let's make the courses pretty darn easy so their scores look like they're as talented as the guys. Let's not often mention what club theyre hitting either...nobody gets excited to see a pro hitting 130yd shot with a 7i". And the fact an 11yr old qualified for the most prestigious tournament reflects that. I would like to see the aforementioned changes take place so the field would tighten up a bit and little girls who should be being...well..little girls don't qualify.

[newtogolf]

Basically I feel the LPGA is saying " let's make the courses pretty darn easy so their scores look like they're as talented as the guys. Let's not often mention what club theyre hitting either...nobody gets excited to see a pro hitting 130yd shot with a 7i". And the fact an 11yr old qualified for the most prestigious tournament reflects that.

I would like to see the aforementioned changes take place so the field would tighten up a bit and little girls who should be being...well..little girls don't qualify.

The purpose of the LPGA is for women to compete against each other.  Since it's a business, the goal is to have them compete in the most entertaining way possible, not to offer a comparison to men.   I doubt people would want to watch women consistently struggle to break par just so the game they play is more relatable to the game the men play.

Keep in mind there are members of the PGA Tour that average less than 260 yards off the tee, so it's not all about distance.

[David in FL]

Except I'm not sure they play the true women's tees, I think they play a melding of the different tees, but I do think that a really good scratch golfer would hold their own on the LPGA tour. At the current LPGA tournament in Thailand, even par would be good enough Tied for 42, and most of the ladies driving average is 250-ish, some lower a couple high.  but a good scratch golfer I think would probably be 30+ yards further.  The course in Thailand they are playing is 6,500 Yds.  [ATTACHMENT=387]SiamCountryClubOldCourseScorecard.jpg (1,804k. jpg file)[/ATTACHMENT]  So that corresponds to the Blue tees. I would think a good scratch player would do well .  not saying they would win every tournament, but I'm guessing they would do for the most part pretty well.

It's worth remembering, that there really isn't anything like a "good" or "bad" scratch golfer. A scratch golfer is defined as "a player who can play to a Course Handicap of zero on any and all rated golf courses". As I posted awhile back, it's a relatively easy math exercise to determine what score is needed to play to a zero course handicap for any course and set of tees. You can then compare that score with the LPGA tour results. It's pretty easy to see that our true scratch player is competitive on the LPGA tour. Not a superstar, but he's chugging along....

[iacas]

Keep in mind there are members of the PGA Tour that average less than 260 yards off the tee, so it's not all about distance.

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.2014.html

Dead last in 2014 was 270+. Distance matters quite a bit.

[Lihu]

That's irrelevant. Numbers don't lie. Only 16 players on the LPGA average 260yds+ drives. Don't forget we're talking SCRATCH male golfers....I'm an 8 hcp and can easily out drive the longest hitter on the LPGA. Also, I assume you're agreeing with me on the changes. I mean if you're saying college girls are at least smoking you off the tee....then the professionals could certainly handle toughening up their courses.

I agree that a scratch with a "normal" short game would out drive all but a few of the current LPGA players, but there are some young lady high school players that average just as far or farther. One of my kids' first tee coaches knows one of them. She's 5'8" 165 pounds (she's muscular), and has driven over 300 yards in competition. She's also not the only one. Many girls are getting that strong. If they lengthened the courses for LPGA, i think more of these players would play golf instead of other sports like softball and such.

[newtogolf]

http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.2014.html

Dead last in 2014 was 270+. Distance matters quite a bit.

My point on referencing distance is that @Vinsk felt he'd be competitive on the LPGA as a 8 handicap because he can drive the ball over 260 yards, I disagree with that assertion not that distance isn't important.

BTW, I took a quick look and only one of the top 10 LPGA distance leaders is in the Top 5 overall of the LPGA.   The best golfer, Ko is ranked 30th with an average of 255.

[Vinsk]

Wrong wrong. I never stated Id fair well on the LPGA. In fact, I clearly stated they'd run circles around me.

[rkim291968]

I am 100% convinced that a scratch golfer would beat even the top LPGA players if they played the same course at same tees. I love golf and watch it excessively....all tours men and women. I've seen a par 4 236yds with the women. Ridiculous. Watching Inbee Park barely put any effort into her slow mechanical swing...often even looking away from the ball before striking it perplexes me. But the more I watch many others I notice most of them hit the ball the way men hit a punch 7 iron to get in a good spot or hit from trees to get back into the fairway. The distances are so silly they can play that way. Gently swing the driver and land it out there about 220. Then they're hitting into a softened up green with much less speed compared to the PGA.

Not against the top player.   This week's event is in a Thailand's course which is 6540 yards (typical LPGA tournament length) but the green speed was estimated at 12 on stimpmeter.   After 2 rounds, the winner is at -14, and average score seems to be -1 or Even.   And the ladies are hitting their drives 250+ on average (not 220 you mentioned above).   There is no way an average scratch golfer will card -14 under similar condition.

Below is a definition of male scratch golfer.  They hit average tee shot of 250 yards.  Zero HI means that his best10 of the last 20 round average is 0.  Which means his true average on course like above will be 73 or 74ish?  My club has a half a dozen scratch golfers and none of these guys will fair well against LPGA average players in any tournament condition.   In fact, from the tips (6750 yards), the club's two day year ending championship tournament winning score was165.  The score this year was high because of windy & muddy condition but under similar "weather" condition, LPGA " top " players will do better than averaging 82.5 in two days even with added distance of playing in 6800 yard course.

"A " scratch golfer " is a player who can play to a Course Handicap of zero on any and all rated golf courses. A male scratch golfer , for rating purposes, can hit tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470-yard hole in two shots at sea level."

[Vinsk]

I guess we'll never know. It's impossible to know what the average scratch golfer drives the ball. The population is too vast. I find it hard to believe that if you took some scratch golfers from Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines or Augusta that they would struggle on an LPGA course from the ladies tees. Again....I don't wanna here she's super girl....but the fact that an 11yr old girl qualified go their open tournament tells me there's a problem.