The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Joeyvee]

Last round just using the one fundamental of 55/45 weight distribution i shot a 108 with what seems like 50 frigging putts.
Royal Kunia 73.5/132
Last night at the range I worked on it some more and got my driver straightened out some and the irons dialed. Playing somewhere Monday. Hopefully I like the greens wherever it is.

[colin007]

One thing that feels more natural to me is bringing the club more inside.

the hands go inside. not the club.

[mvmac]

the hands go inside. not the club.

Yep, something like this

[Stretch]

Well, I feel like I'm doing OK on two out of three of the key metrics: I'm locating the low point OK and I'm controlling the curve OK. What I can't do is hit with any power. Today at the range I was dumping 5 iron shots onto a target green rather nicely and feeling fairly pleased with myself until a chap a foot shorter than me walked up to the next bay and started floating leisurely 8 irons out to the same flag. (I know because I swallowed my pride and asked after clocking the much higher trajectory.) Good player, judging by the swing, but not doing anything special that I could see. Afterward, I went out to the course, where they post the exact yardages to the flag on the Par 3s every day, and hit three balls with a 5 iron to the 5th -- which was playing 164 yards in a dead calm. All three were on the green (so I've got that going for me, which is nice) and the average carry was bang on 160 yards. I just can't help feeling that's piss poor for a tall guy with long levers and likely an indication something's out of whack somewhere. Given that my divots look pretty good and I'm consistently hitting the ball high and right-to-left, I'm a little stumped about where I'm leaking all the oomph. My guess is (lack of) hip clearance and spine extension? Need to find a tripod and shoot some video.

[iacas]

My guess is (lack of) hip clearance and spine extension? Need to find a tripod and shoot some video.

Your guess is probably correct. You'll probably want to revisit the "jumping" lesson we gave you in Boston.

[iacas]

My guess is (lack of) hip clearance and spine extension? Need to find a tripod and shoot some video.

Your guess is probably correct. You'll probably want to revisit the "jumping" lesson we gave you in Boston. But yeah, a tripod and video...

[boogielicious]

Colin has an important correction above. Before getting hands on instruction for S&T; I was bringing my club inside more than my hands and causing overdraws and hooks. At the Boston S&T;, Dave & Co. had me do the hands in drill with a road cone bringing the hands in more than the club head. If you look a the Charlie Wie videos from the rear view, you can see what I mean. This keeps the club head on the correct plane during the back swing.

If your club head goes inside too early, you may also be rolling your left wrist under to help the club. They had me focus on keeping the wrist angle at address the same all the way back. This makes the swing much more repeatable.

Too illustrate, get in your address position. Now lift the club up by cocking your wrists vertically on one plane only without moving anything else. Notice that the angle between your left forearm and the back of your left hand remains the same (looking down your arm) even though your wrists are cocked. That's the angle that S&T; wants you to keep constant during the back swing.

When you take your backswing with hands inside, you should cock your wrists this way at the same time in a constant even motion. When you do it correctly, the hands will go inside faster than the club and everything will stay on their correct plane. You can practice this in front of a mirror without having to go to the range.

[duckhook]

I'm just starting to get into S & T. I've been playing since I was 8 and am now 24. I gave up the game literally late in college after fighting hooks. I got so frustrated with it that I just quit pretty much for two years.

After getting the desire back to play, I miss the competitiveness, and being intrigued by S & T, I picked the game back up this summer. My misses have always been the big pull hook or getting stuck and losing it right. I have always had difficulty getting the ball started to the right of the target consistently.

Basically all I've done so far is working on keeping my weight forward and I've seen good results so far. I like the consistency I get in my ball striking. I'm still having trouble starting the ball to the right, but that will come the more in depth I get into the swing. I picked up the book this week and have really began trying to implement it into my game on the range.

Things I know I will have the most difficulty with: Getting the hands inside, I've always fought having my club get way inside my hands. Also, when I get to the top of the swing I will struggle getting the hips going forward, I will want to let my weight work back to my right side on the start of my downswing. However, I am committed to getting there. My ball flight has already done a complete 180 from hitting it sky high to a low penetrating ball flight which I like a lot, has probably added 10 yards to all my shots.

[dmc]

I guess I have missed something. I'm hitting alot of pulls for some reason. I'm really all over the place. I shot 90 for god's sake. I do this every time I try something new. Maybe I'm trying to do to many changes at once.

[iacas]

I guess I have missed something. I'm hitting alot of pulls for some reason. I'm really all over the place. I shot 90 for god's sake. I do this every time I try something new. Maybe I'm trying to do to many changes at once.

Indeed, what you said at the end could be the case. The S&T; pattern is not an "all or nothing" type thing. Virtually every player can benefit from doing one piece... getting that down, and moving on to the next piece. What pieces those are and the order in which they fit is different for every player.

[i-Guy]

HELP!!!

I will try to post a video in the near future but the following is a little history on me and where I am currently:

Late last year after a year and a half of countless lessons on the traditional swing and seeing enough video of myself “not” doing a good job of getting off my left side during the golf swing I decided to try the S&T; and BOOM! It worked fantastic (I have posted somewhere on this thread with remarks to this affect)…anyway I only got to play 5-6 rounds (which my ball striking during those rounds was the best it’s ever been) because in January I had shoulder surgery (rotator and labrum tears repaired in my left shoulder). About six weeks ago, I was released by my doctor to start swinging irons only and have tried to go back to the S&T; but I am really struggling to find the form I had with the S&T; last fall...for whatever reasons when I try to work on the S&T; at the range I tend to do more tilting then turning and therefore end up in a reverse pivot (maybe it has something to do with my surgery as I am still having bouts with some pain while rehabbing per my doctors orders)...Anyway I own the video series and have been trying to watch the video and apply the basic positions and moves of the S&T; to no avail…every once in a while I hit one like last fall but most of the time I feel like I am doing a small weight shift and therefore putting myself in position for a reverse pivot and I cannot stop…so in attempt to have some pleasure swinging the club I have tried the traditional swing and have had decent results…well until I start leaving my weight on my left side again???

[iacas]

About six weeks ago, I was released by my doctor to start swinging irons only and have tried to go back to the S&T; but I am really struggling to find the form I had with the S&T; last fall...for whatever reasons when I try to work on the S&T; at the range I tend to do more tilting then turning and therefore end up in a reverse pivot (maybe it has something to do with my surgery as I am still having bouts with some pain while rehabbing per my doctors orders)...Anyway I own the video series and have been trying to watch the video and apply the basic positions and moves of the S&T; to no avail…every once in a while I hit one like last fall but most of the time I feel like I am doing a small weight shift and therefore putting myself in position for a reverse pivot and I cannot stop…so in attempt to have some pleasure swinging the club I have tried the traditional swing and have had decent results…well until I start leaving my weight on my left side again???

When you say weight shift, do you mean onto your left foot on the backswing?

The idea is to not have any real feeling of weight shifting in the backswing. Maybe a teeny bit (when in reality it'll go to the right a little bit) of added pressure to the left foot. Regardless, if you feel your left shoulder is going down and forward, then simply take the left shoulder down to a point that's further back in your stance. That'll put more emphasis on turning and less on the shoulder going down (or forward). AT the top of the backswing the feel is at most 60% weight left (and the reality is 60% of your weight is right). Video would help a ton, too, as feel isn't real. http://thesandtrap.com/playing_tips/filming_your_swing

[i-Guy]

When you say weight shift, do you mean onto your left foot on the backswing?

No...I mean like I am swaying onto my right foot...that is probably why I am seeing decent results with a more traditional swing.

The idea is to not have any real feeling of weight shifting in the backswing. Maybe a teeny bit (when in reality it'll go to the right a little bit) of added pressure to the left foot.

Oh so in essence what you are saying is that I am not staying stacked in my backswing and therefore doing more of a tilt (by my left shoulder going down and forward) versus a good shoulder turn by my left shoulder going down and more toward the ball??? Yes???

[iacas]

Oh so in essence what you are saying is that I am not staying stacked in my backswing and therefore doing more of a tilt (by my left shoulder going down and forward) versus a good shoulder turn by my left shoulder going down and more toward the ball??? Yes???

I don't know. You said you were getting into a reverse pivot situation. That's a case where the weight goes too far forward on the backswing and then backwards (to the right foot for a righty) on the downswing.

If you side tilt and extend without rotating you can get into that sort of situation. If you don't side tilt or extend as much as you should but still rotate, you can translate back off the ball (to the right for a righty), and that's not good either as your head is going to move. A steady head is a big part of striking the ball solidly (which is why it going forward/left is equally as bad as it going backwards/right). I might have to insist on some video because I'm not sure we're communicating effectively here. I thought I knew what you meant but your post now makes me wonder if that's the case.

[madforpancakes]

I just picked up the S&T; book a few days ago. Took it to the range shortly after that and hit off some practice mats to get a feel for the swing and video myself to try and see if I was doing it right. I only had my cellphone for a video camera, but I was able to easily identify some parts of my swing that needed work. The particularly obvious ones were me overswinging the club, the clubhead too far back to the inside, throwing away the wedge too soon, and not extending my arms.

Today I decided to go play an executive course not far from my house. The round started off with lots of erratic shots and bad holes, but once I hit the 13th hole or so my game took a turn for the awesome. I was able to focus on keeping my weight left, pushing my hands toward the target at address by trying to pinch my elbows together, and fully extending my arms at impact. I was able to hit 5 of those last 6 greens in regulation, with all of the shots either straight or with a little draw on them. Needless to say I am totally sold on S&T; and definitely plan to keep working on it!

[akgolfnut]

Can I get the "left shoulder down" (on the takeaway) concept explained? I understand you shouldn't move off the ball, which creates a level shoulder turn. So is "shoulder down" term used to show the opposite of this, or do you actually move your shoulder down on the take away. Wouldn't my head dip?

[iacas]

Can I get the "left shoulder down" (on the takeaway) concept explained? I understand you shouldn't move off the ball, which creates a level shoulder turn. So is "shoulder down" term used to show the opposite of this, or do you actually move your shoulder down on the take away. Wouldn't my head dip?

Your shoulders will not turn level if you don't move off the ball. I used this picture in another thread, but it will illustrate the point pretty well. Ignore the bit about the posture - the key numbers are the degrees difference, with the middle image showing this the best - notice how the shoulders have rotated in a circle about the spine with the least difference here - and how low the left shoulder is in the middle image.

Put simply, your spine is at an angle. To rotate your shoulders around your spine, your left shoulder will go down and your right shoulder will go up. Here's another one.

[akgolfnut]

Eric, thanks, thats awesome. So your head does dip slightly. I was at the range yesterday and struggling. But when I focus on the shoulder down and deep hands, almost exaggerating the feeling, I make great contact. It just feels so strange because I am used to moving off the ball and bring the club up more.