The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[bwdial]

I work a little on the downslope of the tee boxes at the closed par 3 course that I practice at, and I just tend to keep a little more weight back than usual to keep my balance.

[talismand]

I have a quick question about pressing the handle of a club forward during setup. There are two ways to do this, one is to rotate the club clockwise (as if there was a spike through the top of the club head directly through to the ground), which opens the face. The other way is pressing the handle forward by de-lofting the club (as if there were an immovable weight on the ground on the long edge of the club head). So which method is prescribed for S&T;? I can see both beng useful depending on the shot you are trying to hit, but which one is preferred for the "stock" shot pattern?

[melchior]

I have a quick question about pressing the handle of a club forward during setup. There are two ways to do this, one is to rotate the club clockwise (as if there was a spike through the top of the club head directly through to the ground), which opens the face. The other way is pressing the handle forward by de-lofting the club (as if there were an immovable weight on the ground on the long edge of the club head). So which method is prescribed for S&T;? I can see both beng useful depending on the shot you are trying to hit, but which one is preferred for the "stock" shot pattern?

You want the latter (delofting the club) for two reasons that I can think of off the top of my head:

1) Opening the clubface is likely something that you haven't normally practiced and can lead to an unpredictable shot (push fade most likely) 2) The delofting also helps move the low point of the swing forward (by making the bottom of the swing radius occur later) which leads to better contact overall.

[Stretch]

I think you want a combination of both. The standard S&T; setup would be with the hands opposite the inside of the left thigh (grip over the inside part of the left ankle from the golfer's perspective). Combined with the prescribed ball position (two balls inside left heel for mid iron, slightly further back/forward as clubs get shorter/longer) this will preset a forward shaft lean and slightly deloft the club. However, in order to hit the preferred push draw, the club face also needs to be slightly open to the target line at address, which will require some additional rotation of the shaft.

[canadianpro]

I agree with "Stretch" as the clubface must be aimed where you want the ball to start....therefore slightly right of target (10 yards) but still closed to the path. Anybody who hasn't followed the ball flight laws should do a search on youtube. Great stuff!

[saevel25]

My issue is getting the path to take advantage of the clubface, because if i have mine open, its going BIG RIGHT!!!

[Zeph]

There is a lot of talk about the pros when it comes to swing philosophies, recently in This thread . What I would like to put focus on is that the guys on the PGA Tour are really good, and making oneself noticed, except if you are Tiger, Phil, Ernie, Steve etc. is hard. All the players out there are good. They hit 50-70% of the greens, 50-70% of the fairways and have a scoring average between 69 and 73. Finding details on a player when he wins and misses a cut is often difficult. There are so many details in a round of golf that you can't point your finger at one thing.

The worst ballstrikers on tour are miles better than a scratch player, there are limited ways to improve in only one part of the game to start winning.

Looking at a tournament, you can find 125 different swings, but they all play really good golf. Some are extremely talented, some have worked really hard on their swing, they all compete out there with a different game. A change from out-in swingpath with a small fade to in-out with a small draw may not show up on the stats, but it could help the player save a shot here and there.

What they all have in common though is the fundamentals of S&T.;

• Hitting the ground in the same place consistently
• Enough power to play the course in a reasonable number of strokes
• Having a predictable curvature (draw, fade, etc.)

They have a different swing path, clubface angle, grip, posture, blall position, ball flight, tempo, swing length etc.

We find the same in high handicappers as far as the differences go, though more extreme than the PGA players. What the high handicappers don't have, are the S&T; fundamentals.

So all the players on the PGA Tour already got these stats down, though some have more consistent poor shots than others. A PGA player starting with some S&T; principles won't suddenly start hitting 90% fairways and every approach inside 10 feet. Most stats will hardly be noticable.

Where S&T; works best is for the amateurs, high handicappers, hackers, people like us on this forum. We struggle because we don't know how to do it properly and nobody has told us how. We struggle because golf instruction forever has been based on wrong ball flight laws and a lot of guesswork. With S&T;, everything is explained. A 20 handicapper working with S&T; for two weeks may see a 50% improvement, while Tiger Woods during the same time perhaps won't see any improvement.

The potential to get better is way higher for a high handicapper than PGA players. So don't put too much thought and worry into why the S&T; swing has been poorly recieved in the media world. Look at what results you can gain from it, and what you can learn from it. You may not get a lot better in a very short time, but just by learning the stuff S&T; teach will help you in the long run. You will know why the ball went left, or right, or short, or high, or low.

S&T; is so much more than weight forward, deep hands and spine tilt. You would do yourself a big favor by at least reading into the theory behind it, or watch the DVDs. I knew most of the basics before I saw the DVDs, so I understood most of it, but give it a try. If there are stuff you don't understand, ask here, or search it up. Most likely, everything has been answered a dozen times before. If not, we'll help you, using both text, video and pictures.

We who don't play for millions of dollars are the ones who have most to gain from getting better.

[Arthur]

My issue is getting the path to take advantage of the clubface, because if i have mine open, its going BIG RIGHT!!!

Mine too. Starting to think the push-draw is like UFO's or found money. Something for everyone else.

[Zeph]

Remember that you don't need every piece of it. Hitting a push draw is not a fundamental of S&T;, hitting a predictable shot is. Nobody is saying S&T; teach everyone to hit a push draw.

[Jell0b0y]

Remember that you don't need every piece of it. Hitting a push draw is not a fundamental of S&T;, hitting a predictable shot is. Nobody is saying S&T; teach everyone to hit a push draw.

That's true. My preference is a push-draw so that's what I am going to try for awhile to accomplish. I hit most of mine straight with my miss hit being a hook so i am thinking a push-draw would be eaiser that a fade for me at the moment

[alomar123]

Was wondering on the importance of having the feet fanned outward with the s&t;(according to their dvd). I like to have my feet perpendicular to the target line. What benefits does having them fanned provide?

[kafka01]

What they all have in common though is the fundamentals of S&T.; * Hitting the ground in the same place consistently * Enough power to play the course in a reasonable number of strokes * Having a predictable curvature (draw, fade, etc.)

Those arent the fundamentals of S&T; - those are the fundamentals or even better results of a "technical sound golfswing".

[iacas]

• Hitting the ground in the same place consistently
• Enough power to play the course in a reasonable number of strokes
• Having a predictable curvature (draw, fade, etc.)

Those arent the fundamentals of S&T; - those are the fundamentals or even better results of a "technical sound golfswing".

kafka is right. Those are the fundamentals to golf as defined (or discovered) by Mike and Andy, not the "fundamentals" of the S&T; swing.

The S&T; swing, however, is built to directly attack those fundamentals. Weight forward, head still, and the flying wedge are critical to hitting the ball before the ground. Several things (tucking the butt, extending, the flying wedge, jumping) tie into power. And some basic principles of handle and weight location and alignment speak to controlling the curve of the golf ball. The fundamentals of the S&T; swing are more like the list Mike and Andy or any knowledgeable instructor will give you: Weight forward. Shoulder down. Hands in. Straighten leg. Arms straight. Tuck butt. S&T; is a pattern. It's in the title of this thread. Not every player needs to do every piece. In fact, most golfers need only a few pieces to take their games to new, great levels. It's a pattern - you get to pick and choose which parts you need to add to your game and the results are predictable and each piece has a reason for being in there.

[soloredd]

I like the definition of S&T; (or any swing, really) being a style. Same as how a jump shot is a jump shot, but each player has a different style. Kobe Bryant's jump shot is not the same as Dwyane Wade's jump shot but both have tremendous consistency and results. You can take a piece from Kobe and a piece from D-Wade and put them into your own style; doesn't change the fact it's still a jump shot. May be a bad comparison but it's all I can come up with at the moment. Doesn't change the fact that with a jump shot you want to get the ball up high at release, you want the ball to roll off your fingers, and you want to follow-through.

I've made the comment before about buying the DVDs and trying to incorporate the S&T; swing as much as possible but I just was not able to be consistent with it. But, I found keeping my weight forward and shoulder down were two things I could piece into my swing to make something work for me. And it has. One day I'd like to have the opportunity to do a S&T; lesson to see, in person, the proper way to do it but I'll have to wait until then.

[Zeph]

Those arent the fundamentals of S&T; - those are the fundamentals or even better results of a "technical sound golfswing".

My mistake, you are right.

http://stackandtiltgolfswing.com/abo...asic-elements/ Weight Forward - More conventional teachings tell us to move a lot of weight back Shoulder Down - Rotate on the inclined plane, not flat like Haney teach Hands In - Hands also rotate on the inclined plane, not out like Haney teach Straighten Leg - Many teachers tell us to keep the flex in the back knee Arms Straight - I believe this is generally accepted as the best way to hit it far Tuck Hips/Extending Spine - A part of the swing which I have not seen mentioned too often, I guess it's more of a result of the head staying still and hips moving forward Not mentioned on the list is a centered head and the flying wedge. You can have the weight forward, shoulders and arms on plane, straightened right leg, arms straight and tuck the hips, but if you throw away the flying wedge, you can still hit it fat. We see many swings where the weight does not move very much forward, but they still got the forward swing bottom. Without holding the wedge, that would be impossible.

[TomL]

Where S&T; works best is for the amateurs, high handicappers, hackers, people like us on this forum. We struggle because we don't know how to do it properly and nobody has told us how. We struggle because golf instruction forever has been based on wrong ball flight laws and a lot of guesswork. With S&T;, everything is explained. A 20 handicapper working with S&T; for two weeks may see a 50% improvement, while Tiger Woods during the same time perhaps won't see any improvement.

For myself it's been at least a three year S&T; ride.

I started with the Golf Digest article - I was on the range as soon as I read it - trying the pattern. I played that version for just over a year. Nice hits, and some improvement, but not a big drop in handicap - stuck around 14-15. It was self-taught. Then I bought DVD set and got into the intricate details that weren't in the magaizines. A small game inprovement. I took a live lesson at thegolfevolution with the S&T; guys Dave Wedzik and Steve Sieracki and saw big swing improvement - but scoring stayed the same - just a few bright spots. My daughter bought the Plummer/Bennett book for me at Christmas and in the new golf year this spring I trecked to Erie for another full day clinic. That journey - and a lot of work on all aspects of the game - has finally paid off. My handicap started to drop in the middle of this summer. Better scores, better attitude - and many hours working at the range. My handicap hit 10 (down from 14) RCGA index 8.3! That was my goal about 5 years ago - I never thought it would happen. Then I broke through and reached 9 for two weeks. That was because of scores under 80 - a couple of 79's, 78's and a personal best 77 in there. I am 59 years old - my back feels better than ever and my game is in the best shape ever. My shot shape is a fade. I can count on it. I can throw a push/draw with driver out there on some of the holes that need it and are wide enough - but a fade gets me into the fairway most times. I feel I can do a lot to improve - my irons could be crisper; a few push/draws with my irons would be nice for sure. There are plenty of youtube videos and the forum at thegolfevolution.com has golfers like you working on their S&T; swings and willing to offer advice for free. I thank them for their encouragment of my swing and for their video posts of their swings. The other aspects of the game should not be lost - putting, short game and the mental game all have to be worked on besides the full swing. Oh yes, you gotta believe!! Tom L Windsor, Ontario, Canada

[boogielicious]

"Was wondering on the importance of having the feet fanned outward with the s&t;(according to their dvd). I like to have my feet perpendicular to the target line. What benefits does having them fanned provide? "

It encourages your weight to stay more on the front leg during the back swing and helps maintain balance on your follow through. If your front foot is parallel, you tend to put weight on the ball of the front foot and your knee may bend more towards your back foot promoting a weight shift back. When it is at 30 degrees toward target, the knee will tend to bend towards the ball instead and the weight will stay the way you have it at address, 55/45.

On the follow through, you will put much less stress on your front ankle because the foot won't roll over as much. I have a bad left ankle from soccer and it really helps a lot. It takes a bit of practice to get used to it, but after some work, it will feel comfortable.

[iacas]

It encourages your weight to stay more on the front leg during the back swing and helps maintain balance on your follow through. If your front foot is parallel, you tend to put weight on the ball of the front foot and your knee may bend more towards your back foot promoting a weight shift back. When it is at 30 degrees toward target, the knee will tend to bend towards the ball instead and the weight will stay the way you have it at address, 55/45.

That's true. The other reason is because it lets the hips work better, particularly on the backswing, and encourages a better forward hip slide on the downswing (which you said).