The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Good to see Dustin Johnson knows the ballflight laws, perhaps from his time working with B&P;? There are still so many who dont know this, including Poulter who hits the tree in his draw video.

I have a few older golf books and when they describe hitting a fade or a draw around an object, they encourage the player to err on the side of caution when allowing for the ball to clear the object. Tom Kite for example encouraged playing a bit farther right or left to avoid driving the ball into the object. He probably experienced hitting the tree enough times to do it properly without necessarily know why. In most of the old books they add disclaimers and qualifiers that, when incorporated as they say, results in success. Unfortunately, what gets quoted and reprinted is the one paragraph excerpt that, on its own, is sometimes kind of backwards.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by colin007

if im reading this right, a path that is 0 to the target at impact and the face is 1 or 2 degrees open, youll have a ball that starts to the right of the target and fades away further away from the target.  a miss, in other words.

It depends on where you are aiming. Lots of professionals aim to the left and hit a push-fade like that. The advantage is that you can have a in-to-out or square swingpath and still hit a fade. With one swingpath, you can change flight by aiming left or right and opening or closing the clubface. S&T; suggest a swingpath going in-to-out so you can hit a push-draw, but you can of course play with other paths, though I would not suggest a path going too much out-to-in. You don't have to take every piece of the pattern. If you have a square swingpath and don't want to change it, that's fine.

[Stretch]

Who's this hack?

How does it go again? Weight forward, shoulder down, hands in, arms straight, raise belt/tuck butt.*

(Before I get flamed to ash, not suggesting in any way that Kaymer "is S&T;" -- just noting the common elements of a good player's swing as they would be described in the method. See the "S&T; Is Traditional" thread here etc. etc.)

Nice foot work, too.

[gmbtempe]

Originally Posted by colin007

if im reading this right, a path that is 0 to the target at impact and the face is 1 or 2 degrees open, youll have a ball that starts to the right of the target and fades away further away from the target.  a miss, in other words.

There are some variables we could add to the equation and run circles around the numbers but the simple question is it possible to hit a ball that starts straight but falls right in a SnT pattern?  I ask as someone who for the life of me am not comfortable aiming left, pushing it, then having it fall right.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by gmbtempe

I was thinking path=0 with face maybe a degree or so open

Yeah, well, I suppose technically that's a push-fade but you'd have a hard time calling it not a straight fade, too. Once you get down to a degree or so it becomes a matter of how you define things.

Originally Posted by gmbtempe

There are some variables we could add to the equation and run circles around the numbers but the simple question is it possible to hit a ball that starts straight but falls right in a SnT pattern?  I ask as someone who for the life of me am not comfortable aiming left, pushing it, then having it fall right.

Sure. It wouldn't be a "strict" S&T; pattern because a "strict" S&T; pattern is an inline push-draw, the draw coming because as you know we hit the ball while the club is traveling down, out, and forward. You could certainly hit a straight fade or a baby pull-fade with a very S&T; move if you simply do something to shift the baseline left a little - throw the left arm off the chest a little earlier, lower the exit, get a little more rotary a little earlier at the expense of moving forward quite so much...

Frankly, it's an area we're looking to expand on in our teaching (at Golf Evolution) with some variations and things to the pattern. If you want to hit a tight little fade we certainly know how to teach it, and will be happy to. The stock shot will continue to be an inline push-draw though, and that will continue to serve as the basic geometric model.

[gmbtempe]

Yea Erik I was just wondering how that shot fits into the SnT pattern, if it could be accomplished through the SnT pattern from ball position or setup changes, without baseline shifting.  Once you get a pattern down, such as SnT, then manipulating baselines is not that difficult, IMO (now head tilts, eye tilts, knee, feet etc, well thats tougher).

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Who's this hack?

Nice foot work, too.

I like the way his "forward shaft lean" seems a bit more natural than the degree to which some people go on about.

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I like the way his "forward shaft lean" seems a bit more natural than the degree to which some people go on about.

i agree. Ive always liked john dalys shaft lean as well.

[saevel25]

What i like about that forward shaft lean is that this hand is flat, its not bowed. So he's not creating an angle between his left arm and the shaft. When people talk about forward lean shaft, that should be caused from having hips pushed forward and the ball behind the hips, not because they are overemphasizing having there wrist way ahead of there clubhead at impact.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by saevel25

What i like about that forward shaft lean is that this hand is flat, its not bowed. So he's not creating an angle between his left arm and the shaft. When people talk about forward lean shaft, that should be caused from having hips pushed forward and the ball behind the hips, not because they are overemphasizing having there wrist way ahead of there clubhead at impact.

Bingo! It appears to be the end (ish) result of having done a lot of things properly.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by gmbtempe

Yea Erik I was just wondering how that shot fits into the SnT pattern, if it could be accomplished through the SnT pattern from ball position or setup changes, without baseline shifting.  Once you get a pattern down, such as SnT, then manipulating baselines is not that difficult, IMO (now head tilts, eye tilts, knee, feet etc, well thats tougher).

Of course, yeah. Whether you call it "through the S&T; pattern" or if you want to call it "MORAD Lite" or something is up to you - I don't much care for distinctions like that, to be honest - but yeah, we can teach people who want to hit a straight fade or a pull fade. But you knew that. ;-)

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I like the way his "forward shaft lean" seems a bit more natural than the degree to which some people go on about.

Pros don't have as much shaft lean as people think. Goodness, you have too much shaft lean and you'd take a massive divot the ball wouldn't go high in the air, you'd lose speed because the left-shoulder-to-clubhead radius would be too short... etc.

That said we almost never see someone with too much shaft lean, particularly if their head hasn't gone forward on the downswing (if you want to come down the steepest, move your head forward on the downswing and play the ball well back - you can chop down like a mofo...).

[gmbtempe]

How do you know if you are over or under rotated?

Is there any type of checkpoint for the shoulders in the backswing?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by gmbtempe

How do you know if you are over or under rotated?

Is there any type of checkpoint for the shoulders in the backswing?

Checkpoints, sure. I don't want to list them specifically but yes, there are checkpoints for how far your shoulders will have turned by P3, for example (almost all the way, to be semi-vague). We have a few people who over-rotate, but a lot of the times it's a rates issue and we get into fixing the rates at which they load their accumulators and things like that.

If you want a model, the various Wi/Waite/Badds/etc. videos out there should suffice.

You may gather but we know the pattern pretty well, but we also perhaps allow for a little more wiggle room in the pattern than others (or at least more than others would have you believe, for example a certain "mann" named Jeff. :-D).

[colin007]

Originally Posted by Zeph

It depends on where you are aiming. Lots of professionals aim to the left and hit a push-fade like that. The advantage is that you can have a in-to-out or square swingpath and still hit a fade. With one swingpath, you can change flight by aiming left or right and opening or closing the clubface. S&T; suggest a swingpath going in-to-out so you can hit a push-draw, but you can of course play with other paths, though I would not suggest a path going too much out-to-in. You don't have to take every piece of the pattern. If you have a square swingpath and don't want to change it, that's fine.

yeah, i know, i was just responding to the guys question.  i was assuming since he said swing path was at 0 degrees, then that would also be his target line.  a clubface thats slightly open at that point has no chance of being on target.

[westcyderydin]

So i just read the Stack and Tilt book.  I really enjoyed the way the swing is layed out in the book.  Having said that i have a couple of questions.

1)  I have heard people say that they like to aim at trouble and draw/fade the ball away from it.  but with the shot cone from the book in mind they would rather miss with less curve than with over curve.  So would i be correct to conclude that it is best to aim a touch farther away from the trouble and just hit the stock shot or start the ball away from the trouble and curve it toward the trouble?

2)  In the book it said that hitting a push fade is a more powerful way to hit a fade, and if i remember right they said it was their preferred way to hit the fade.  Does that mean it goes farther than a pull fade?  I just wonder because the face is more open for the push fade, is it not?

And then to hit a push fade do you just aim to the left of the target, open the clubface, then swing to where you are aimed?

thanks for any feedback.

[Stretch]

These sound like good questions for a general Stack and Tilt thread. If only we had one!

[CalBoomer]

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

So i just read the Stack and Tilt book.  I really enjoyed the way the swing is layed out in the book.  Having said that i have a couple of questions.

1)  I have heard people say that they like to aim at trouble and draw/fade the ball away from it.  but with the shot cone from the book in mind they would rather miss with less curve than with over curve.  So would i be correct to conclude that it is best to aim a touch farther away from the trouble and just hit the stock shot or start the ball away from the trouble and curve it toward the trouble?

2)  In the book it said that hitting a push fade is a more powerful way to hit a fade, and if i remember right they said it was their preferred way to hit the fade.  Does that mean it goes farther than a pull fade?  I just wonder because the face is more open for the push fade, is it not?

And then to hit a push fade do you just aim to the left of the target, open the clubface, then swing to where you are aimed?

thanks for any feedback.

Copy and paste the following link to one of the threads in this forum (5th post down):

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/43528/hitting-a-fade-with-a-varyingly-closed-stance

In that thread, I posted an old clip from Golf magazine written by Lee Trevino which is the best description of the push fade (or power fade) I have ever seen. Iacas does not like long quotes but he let that one stand. It has been very helpful to my game, especially my driving. But I only use stack and tilt principles for my irons, when I am trying to make contact with a slightly descending blow. I try to hit my driver with a very slight upswing at contact and try to stay behind the ball--all of which is impossible with stack and tilt methodology.

With regard to your question about aiming a push fade, it all depends on "what" you are aiming. As recommended by Trevino, my stance line is way open left, my shoulder line is less open left, and my club face is open to both, but almost square to the target. So my open club face is aimed square to the target, everything else variably to the left. It may sound weird but it is extremely reliable for producing a very straight ball or one that fades very slightly right.

[Stretch]

The key idea of the shot cone is that you try never to cross over the target. So, if you play a stock draw and the flag is on the left of the green with gnarly bunkers over that side -- you set up so that you are absolutely not going to miss left of the hole if you hit any normal shot in your repertoire. This likely means aiming out at the right fringe and just accepting that any kind of a push is going to be off the surface. But even then, you are chipping back with plenty of green to work with rather than short sided in the sand.

To hit a push fade, you aim the club face where you want the ball to start, slightly left of the target, and your feet/body well to the left of that. You can then swing in-to-out and still have the face open relative to the swing path at impact, applying fade spin.