The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[golflax65]

Originally Posted by Lihu

This method is really good. The only changes I made, only for longer clubs, are that the left leg (left handed swing) is taking more weight than the right during the backswing cycle. The other thing is my left leg is slightly bent and flexed. Seems to give me more force on the ball. I also setup the ball closer to the right foot. Everything is reversed for right handed playing.

I have had the same high flight issues with balls using my 460cc driver. I bought a used old steel 3 wood with 15 degrees of loft. It really launches the ball only 15 degrees. This lower flight made me think to lower the tee position on my driver.

So, I practice with the steel head to change my swing plane, then the results transfer back to the 460cc head.

Now, my 9 degree burner driver really goes lower and more penetrating, and my 10.5 g15 goes higher as expected.

I just hit into a headwind, on the driving range, so the flight was high again. However, not as high as before implementing this "new" training aide. On top of that, I did not lose as much distance into the wind as before.

Now it is only on occasional hits that I hit high. Fixed part of the problem, it seems, in the last 3 weeks or so.

I am taking as much advice from this forum as possible. Too bad I did not join 2 years ago when I started golf.

Ah  I see you're left handed. The true S&T swing has roughly 95% of your weight on the left (your right) at the top of the backswing, and around 100% at impact. The way you are doing it has weight shift from one side to the other, which (according to S&T guys) leads to a lot of problems

[iacas]

Originally Posted by golflax65

Ah  I see you're left handed. The true S&T swing has roughly 95% of your weight on the left (your right) at the top of the backswing, and around 100% at impact. The way you are doing it has weight shift from one side to the other, which (according to S&T guys) leads to a lot of problems

That's (bold) not even close to accurate.

Note that "weight" and "pressure" are not the same thing. If you make a centered shoulder turn and start with about 50% of your weight forward at setup, 50% of your weight will be forward at the top of your backswing.

Impact is 85-95% weight forward.

[Missouri Swede]

Originally Posted by iacas

Note that "weight" and "pressure" are not the same thing. If you make a centered shoulder turn and start with about 50% of your weight forward at setup, 50% of your weight will be forward at the top of your backswing.

It's been a while since I had to tutor physics, so I'm no expert, so correct me if I'm not understanding this. Weight is a force due to gravity and mass (F=M*A), and I know that pressure is just force per unit area. So are you pointing out a difference between (1) the force I exert on the ground through my feet due to gravity versus (2) the force I exert on the ground through my feet due to gravity added to other forces, and accounting for the surface area of my feet?

[Stretch]

I still don't really understand it either. And even the folks who do seem to be forced to use the terms interchangeably for the sake of general student comprehension.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

It's been a while since I had to tutor physics, so I'm no expert, so correct me if I'm not understanding this. Weight is a force due to gravity and mass (F=M*A), and I know that pressure is just force per unit area. So are you pointing out a difference between (1) the force I exert on the ground through my feet due to gravity versus (2) the force I exert on the ground through my feet due to gravity added to other forces, and accounting for the surface area of my feet?

As I've said, weight and pressure are not the same in a dynamic system.

5SK prefers a model with Key #1 - Steady Head. If you do that with your head in the middle of your stance, your weight will be roughly 50/50 at the top of the backswing, but the PRESSURE will often be higher beneath your trail foot because of the changing flex in the knees.

The DVD should say "pressure" of course because you can only truly measure "weight" in a static system.

But the weight is roughly 50/50 and the pressure is often 65/35 or so (trail foot 65) in a centered pivot style swing.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by iacas

As I've said, weight and pressure are not the same in a dynamic system.

5SK prefers a model with Key #1 - Steady Head. If you do that with your head in the middle of your stance, your weight will be roughly 50/50 at the top of the backswing, but the PRESSURE will often be higher beneath your trail foot because of the changing flex in the knees.

The DVD should say "pressure" of course because you can only truly measure "weight" in a static system.

But the weight is roughly 50/50 and the pressure is often 65/35 or so (trail foot 65) in a centered pivot style swing.

I would assume that is at the top of the swing during transition, or the 'push off'.

There are two ways to get a lot of pressure in the left side at impact - forcing it there through actual body/weight shift and creating the pressure through 'posting' the left side whilst the upper body resists the centrifugal force of the club on the throughswing (imagine at impact being in a position where you could play tug of war with the target).

Irons tend to be played with the first one, drivers with the second way. would you agree?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

I would assume that is at the top of the swing during transition, or the 'push off'.

Which part? The A4 measurements? They're before "push-off" and depending on how you define "transition" before that too. We have the charts - look at the DVDs if you'd like. Or find a SwingCatalyst/SAM Balance Lab.

Originally Posted by Adam Young

There are two ways to get a lot of pressure in the left side at impact - forcing it there through actual body/weight shift and creating the pressure through 'posting' the left side whilst the upper body resists the centrifugal force of the club on the throughswing (imagine at impact being in a position where you could play tug of war with the target).

Irons tend to be played with the first one, drivers with the second way. would you agree?

Kind of. I disagree with the wording on the second as well as the "tug of war" image.

Obviously their body weight is not 95% forward in these images, but they will get there.

Amateurs often get 75% of their pressure forward but it's done early. Then they prematurely snap their left leg straight, before their hips have slid forward enough, and they end up pushing themselves backwards rather than upwards and slightly forwards.

You'll note (general "you" here) that good players can have their right foot completely slip out (i.e. because there's not much pressure on it) during the downswing and they'll still often make surprisingly good contact with the ball.

[Adam Young]

Wasn't actually suggesting this, lol. but in your left hand pic - the upper body leaning back behind a posted left leg provides a lot of pressure in the left foot - in a very different way to how it can be produced through a more stacked upper body over left side position. The impact values on a pressure meter could be the same at impact, yet produced in a very different way.

RE your last comment - remember the sergio garcia/addidas shoe incident? fun times, even the pro's back foot can slip out sometimes :)

and i'm waiting til i get to america to get the dvd's

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Wasn't actually suggesting this, lol. but in your left hand pic - the upper body leaning back behind a posted left leg provides a lot of pressure in the left foot - in a very different way to how it can be produced through a more stacked upper body over left side position. The impact values on a pressure meter could be the same at impact, yet produced in a very different way.

Almost nobody does the bold and almost everyone creates an "upper body leaning back" because the head stays relatively steady in the center of your stance while your hips and legs drive forward to create secondary axis tilt.

[Adam Young]

ok, one last attempt ;)

the two pictures you posted are of very different body positions post impact - I would consider the right picture the more stacked position (even though he still has secondary axis tilt, or however you word it) and the left picture the more tug of war picture.

Both could be producing the same amount of relative force under the left foot - and as you rightly said, some amateurs can produce pressure in the left foot equal to the same amount yet in a completely different manner (although with a steady head - one of your keys) it is more likely to be through correct means.

Regardless, I like a drill where you hit the ball and then immediately re-coil back to the top of your backswing as fast as you can. you can even make swings where you just swing back and through and back again (over and over) as fast as you can. This forces you to move your weight correctly and to 'post up' better as opposed to lunging forward to create the weight shift. With the correct posting, you will be able to keep you balance and have no problem re-coiling.

Putting this on a force plate produces good amounts of pressure shift without over-doing the weight movement (much tighter coils and movement, much more snap at the bottom, much more aggressive transitions in terms of change of direction (as opposed to flinging of body parts))

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

the two pictures you posted are of very different body positions post impact

Neither of them are necessarily the S&T swing, either. I'm just talking about pressures here.

Originally Posted by Adam Young

I would consider the right picture the more stacked position (even though he still has secondary axis tilt, or however you word it) and the left picture the more tug of war picture.

Yet both are exhibiting a lot of ground pressure into the left foot. Done differently, and obviously the Hogan picture is much more from the Power Golf days than the swing he used more commonly.

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Regardless, I like a drill where you hit the ball and then immediately re-coil back to the top of your backswing as fast as you can. you can even make swings where you just swing back and through and back again (over and over) as fast as you can. This forces you to move your weight correctly and to 'post up' better as opposed to lunging forward to create the weight shift. With the correct posting, you will be able to keep you balance and have no problem re-coiling.

I don't know where you're getting this "lunging forward." I don't recommend that to anyone, and if you can be more clear about where you think I've said that, or what you're taking that way, we can have a conversation, but at this point I think you've misunderstood something.

We're happy with our force plate numbers, and the S&T swing produces very similar numbers as every other swing used on the PGA Tour in terms of timing and amounts of pressure.

[Adam Young]

Sorry Erik, Think you mis understood my intentions. I was just asking a question about your original quote regarding weight at the top - asking if it was transition or before.

Then I went on to just simply talk about having the same pressure rating at impact with differing methods, and recommending a drill for obtaining a posting method as opposed to a lunging method (what some people do, nothing to do with anything you said or did not say).

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Sorry Erik, Think you mis understood my intentions. I was just asking a question about your original quote regarding weight at the top - asking if it was transition or before.

At the top.

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Then I went on to just simply talk about having the same pressure rating at impact with differing methods, and recommending a drill for obtaining a posting method as opposed to a lunging method (what some people do, nothing to do with anything you said or did not say).

Okay. I'm not a fan of "posting" either - people tend straighten their lead knees prematurely when they "post" in my experience, but in no way is "lunging" good either.

[Subaroo]

Can someone direct me to "the DVD" that everyone is talking about.  I found the book by Michael Bennett and Andy Plummer pretty easily, but which DVD should I be getting in order to learn the fundamentals of the swing?

Is this the right link? http://stackandtilt.com/products-page/dvds/

And if so, which set?  (Please don't tell me its the $70 one)

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Subaroo

Can someone direct me to "the DVD" that everyone is talking about.  I found the book by Michael Bennett and Andy Plummer pretty easily, but which DVD should I be getting in order to learn the fundamentals of the swing?

Is this the right link?  http://stackandtilt.com/products-page/dvds/

And if so, which set?  (Please don't tell me its the $70 one)

I would highly recommend these DVDs instead of the S&T; DVDs ... http://www.golfshopcentral.com/p-37-medicus-purestrike-dvd-collection.aspx?B=1&A;=59

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I would highly recommend these DVDs instead of the S&T DVDs ... http://www.golfshopcentral.com/p-37-medicus-purestrike-dvd-collection.aspx?B=1&A;=59

I've looked at the Stack and Tilt DVDs and compared notes with someone who saw the earlier versions and S&T 2.0.

They like the S&T 2.0 a heckuva lot more than the original S&T videos. If you like S&T, 2.0 is excellent. The guys are low key and offer down-to-earth explanations and video.

I'll get the 5 Keys next.

[krieg17]

Can I just say that I think people are over thinking this whole S&T thing.  I shoot about 88-94 on most rounds....but am inconsistent like so many others.  Especially irons.  I got tired of having 7 iron or less to the green and missing it 85% of the time.  Never completely terrible...but always 5-10 yds left, right, long or short.  Which led to an extra shot on many many holes during a typical round.  I am typically a cast/scooper with the irons and that's what leads to the inconsistencies.

Long story short....I got fed up.   I researched free video's and what not on S&T.;   I was intrigued because I kind of reverse C anyway a little and don't pinch the ball at all.  Went to the range with some S&T principles and hit a bucket.  Best range session of all-time.  All were right at the target with only a few pushes a tad right, but even those weren't terrible.  Did another session...my draw went to more of a draw and almost a hook....but contact, pinch, divot position...all great still.  At this point...Instead of messing with the swing cause it still felt great, I simply changed my alignment slightly to the left (a little open), weakened my grip from strong to neutral and opened the blade up a few degrees at address.  The results were fantastic.

I took it the course for the fist time yesterday.  Let's just say....I won't ever go back to my casting, scooping inconsistent old swing.  Every iron shot was crisp and compressed....and you can really start getting a feel for them as for the first time the contact was 100% consistent.  So, after i found to open the blade a few degrees and go neutral grip at address....I simply used my shoulders at address to change the ball flight.  If I wanted a fade, I'd leave the shoulders slightly open.  If I wanted a draw, I'd pull my right shoulder way back to be slightly closed at address.  Worked like a damn miracle.

I shot an 83 and that is the 2nd best round of my life.  Mostly due to better iron play.

I just wanted to tell you guys what I did to achieve the results and tell you that it was not hard at all.  I did not read any books or watch any DVD's or complicate by adding new swing mechanics in there as well.  I simply put my weight at about 60-65% left foot at address and keep it there the whole time. It really is no harder than keeping your weight 65% left at address.  If you start hooking do the above mentioned tweaks at address to open the face a bit....and don't mess with your actual swing.   Everything is done before you start your swing, and it's magic baby!

Not saying it'll work for everyone.....Just wanted to share my experience because i'm very excited about it.

Disclaimer:  I do not use this method for anything other than irons 6-SW.  Driver through 5 hybrid i use a more traditional sweeping swing.  Also, I have nothing to do w/ stack and tilt and am not spamming their product in any way as I don't know if I'm actually even using their method beings how all I do is start with the weight thing and haven't seen any videos or books to know how much more complex it is than that.

Anybody else just have a light come on w/ this method for their irons?

[lewisgl]

I have been using Stack and Tilt for about 5 months and actually am doing fairly good with it.   Haven't had any Stack and Tilt lessons, picked up the book and some CD's and started working on it and went to the course with it shortly after.   Curiously enough, it has helped the  fairway wood contact and driver accuracy more so than the irons so far.  That seems kind of strange but it is actually true, although have had some success with the irons too.   On the better swings with the driver I have hit some sweeping type of draws, which I haven't been able to hit in about 7 years, and have hit some of the best fairway wood approach shots I have hit in at least 7 years (60 years old this year).  I have the Stack and Tilt book and first set of DVD;s which will need to be reviewed again.   The main miss for me has been the push, most of the time a straight push, occasionally with a fade.  IT has showed up pretty much across the board at times, driver to Lob wedge.   One issue that has bothered me is the seeming inability to move the hips correctly through impact on consistent basis, also I feel a little trapped in the downswing at times too and that leads to some pushing.   Based on feel alone, part of my problem is not maintaining the weight on the left foot throughout the swing.  Sometimes the weight goes back to the right foot and that seems to be a Death Move for this swing, because that will result in a severe push.  For me, the trickiest part of Stack and Tilt is the correct hip action in the downswing and I don't particularly care for the finish either.   In another words I don't seem to have enough rotation and the arms can end up staying in right field so to speak.   This has me looking more towards Sean Foley's teaching as he seems to recommend more rotation than the Stack and Tilt guys yet he is a solid believer in a low front shoulder and weight forward.   In summation, I like at least certain elements of Stack and Tilt, weight forward, front shoulder down and hands in, but am not doing well with some of the downswing fundamentals.   Just for further information, the reason why I left a  two plane, two pivot point motion, was because I was swinging too much from the inside and hitting fairly severe pushes too often.  Stack and Tilt has actually improved the pushing issue, but  it still needs further improvement.  Another interesting thing too, is that when I began to use Stack and Tilt principles on the golf course, the scoring/handicap was immediately just as good as 2 plane, and a little better since probably.