The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[iacas]

Please correct me if I'm wrong (I couldn't read the whole thread!), but doesn't Sean Foley teach stack and tilt?

No. Before we get too far into depth, if you want to discuss this, you'll have to define "Stack and Tilt" exactly. Ben Hogan had a swing with many of the Stack and Tilt principles. Doesn't mean Ben Hogan had the perfect "Stack and Tilt" swing.

Sean teaches a centered pivot… but so do a lot of people these days. The average PGA Tour player moves his head about an inch with a mid-iron.

I saw a video of him saying to put your weight on your left side on the backswing, then put even more weight on the left on the downswing.

Yep. That's a good video that can help a lot of people, who often move their heads back and up during the backswing, and then can't get forward enough during the downswing.

Even during a centered pivot, pressure/force shifts right during the backswing:

Seems like this would work great for irons, but I could see how a reverse pivot could easily creep in.

If your weight stays 50/50, and goes to 95/5 at impact (forward/back, that is), it's not a reverse pivot.

[Mr. Desmond]

1.5 Index and ball striking not your strength? WOW give me some of that lol...

Yesterday I decided to really get to it with SnT and it helped.. Shoulder down and deep hands seems to be my problem and  i hit it better so the journey continues...  FW and Driver still a struggle though

If the contact with  high lofted irons is ok, and everything else is inconsistent contact, it could be you are coming down too steep at the ball causing your inconsistency.. mvmac has a vid on separating the arms from the top at the start of the downswing to shallow out your arms. When the arms start their way down, instead of the arms going forward too soon, shallow it out a little - the arms go down before they go forward causing them to shallow out resulting in better consistency and ball striking with every club.

[Crazycanuck44]

Do you have a link for that arm swing video?

[Mr. Desmond]

Do you have a link for that arm swing video?

No, but mvmac uses the same wide separation in all of his swings.

See My Swing (mvmac)

See the above -- notice the beginning of the downswing and how his arms separate from his neck/shoulder -- they first separate by going down before going forward, or better, that is what I think is a good feel. See 0:07 at the top, and then 0:08. See how low his arms are at the right thigh.

It ends up creating a wider bottom at the swing, allowing the bounce/glide of the club to work if you make a slight mistake and creates the best opportunity for you to make solid contact.

At least, in my unheralded opinion. It works for me.

[Crazycanuck44]

Nice tyvm. Thinking of taking online lessons since no evolv in my region.

[Ernest Jones]

Nice tyvm. Thinking of taking online lessons since no evolv in my region.

Evolvr is an online service.

[HawkNballs]

Thanks for the info, iacas.  Just using the term "stack and tilt" seems to hit a nerve with a lot of golfers.

I actually like what Sean Foley teaches.  A centered turn on the backswing and shift to the left side on the downswing.  Golf teachers keep telling me that the pros heads drift off the ball on the backswing, but I never see it.  It's like their heads are in a vise during their swings.  It's pretty amazing.

Also... when I keep my head still on the backswing, my right leg gets straight.  Every teacher has told me to keep it flexed.  Maybe I need to find a teacher that believes in some of the S&T; concepts.  I definitely use it on my chips!  ha!

The more I learn about the swing, the more confusing it gets.  There's some very knowledgeable teachers that contradict each other.  I guess everyone just needs to find what works for them.

[Slowcelica]

Has anyone seen Darren Hopwoods videos on you tube about the s&t; swing? What do you think about them?

[Crazycanuck44]

Yes I have, and not being an expert in this field I thought he did a decent job of it but like I said I'm no expert..

[Crazycanuck44]

Did better today 89 it's work in progress. ;-)

[scopek]

Has anyone seen Darren Hopwoods videos on you tube about the s&t; swing? What do you think about them?

I think he's good now that I re-watch his clips and understand the S&T; pattern a bit better. I found it difficult, however, to learn S&T; from Hopwood, the S&T; book, DVDs, or other YouTube clips. It's only been recently after getting instruction from other teachers that the S&T; pattern makes more sense. I'm actually working with my evolvr instructor on a S&T; pattern (my request) and the things that Bennett and Plumber are teaching have finally started to become clearer.

[Slowcelica]

I think he's good now that I re-watch his clips and understand the S&T; pattern a bit better. I found it difficult, however, to learn S&T; from Hopwood, the S&T; book, DVDs, or other YouTube clips. It's only been recently after getting instruction from other teachers that the S&T; pattern makes more sense. I'm actually working with my evolvr instructor on a S&T; pattern (my request) and the things that Bennett and Plumber are teaching have finally started to become clearer.

Yea I really haven't found a good instructor in my area in any swing pattern not just s&t.; The only think I don't like about his videos is that he wears black pants so it's really hard to see his leg positions.

[DaveST]

Read through a lot of the beginning pages and thought I would add my experience.

I'm a proud stack and tilt student but when I was first introduced to it I wasn't aware what "stack and tilt" even was. I didn't realize it was what I was being taught until 5 months afterwards. If you are able to find a good informed teacher you will see quick progress. The more I learned about Stack and Tilt the more I learned what makes a swing work. I went from casting my right hand with high banana slices to penetrating draws. After my first 2 lessons I instantly noticed a difference in compression. I stuck with my instructor because of this and continued to learn a great deal. I was lucky enough to work with Bennett a few times as he came through my town and would meet my instructor and each time he did my mind was blown on how quickly he was able to adjust my swing for even more break throughs with his drills and camera. I know there are many moves non stack and tilt that will create more power for you but they also will require more practice and better timing. For me at my level I want to master the stack and tilt fundamentals for consistency before adding more non stack and tilt "power moves" that will create inconsistent timing issues which requires it's own practice.

Educate yourself though. Most of the S+T students I have met have moved on to an "evolved" stack and tilt swing to create more power once they have mastered the fundamentals of the stack and tilt. Notice I say "once they have mastered"

If you are inconsistent, lack compression and desire a draw then you should give Stack and Tilt an honest effort and make your adjustments from there or at the very least learn what the difference is. Don't make any swing changes without understanding "why" you are doing what you are doing. I feel like a lot of the bad rep it has gotten is from other Pro's protecting their income. If they can't teach it to you then they aren't going to say anything kind about it. Every pro I met that wasn't informed on Stack and Tilt only spoke negatively about it despite not being trained in it themselves. That's unprofessional at its best and I make certain not to send any students their way after. It's one thing to say "I've learned what Stack and tilt is about but I believe this is the better path for you and here's why" but it's quite another to say "don't mess with it, it will only screw you up and I refuse to deal with it or learn more about it". If you encounter any instructor that reacts the 2nd way leave immediately and don't go back. They just want your money and they have lost their ability to learn themselves. All PGA pros continue to go through seminars and should continue to learn more every year. If yours doesn't, that's a big red flag.

If ever you get the chance take the seminar with Bennett, it is worth the money and he gives complete 1 on 1 attention even in group lessons. However you learn to swing just always learn the why's. If your pro restricts your knowledge that's a red flag. Always keep your ability to be wrong and learn more. A lot of older pros have lost that and consequently are stuck in their ways. Stack and tilt was a big breakthrough and fix for me and I am extremely glad to have learned and continue to learn more about it.

Stack and Tilt Student since September 2012

[Slowcelica]

Read through a lot of the beginning pages and thought I would add my experience. I'm a proud stack and tilt student but when I was first introduced to it I wasn't aware what "stack and tilt" even was. I didn't realize it was what I was being taught until 5 months afterwards. If you are able to find a good informed teacher you will see quick progress. The more I learned about Stack and Tilt the more I learned what makes a swing work. I went from casting my right hand with high banana slices to penetrating draws. After my first 2 lessons I instantly noticed a difference in compression. I stuck with my instructor because of this and continued to learn a great deal. I was lucky enough to work with Bennett a few times as he came through my town and would meet my instructor and each time he did my mind was blown on how quickly he was able to adjust my swing for even more break throughs with his drills and camera. I know there are many moves non stack and tilt that will create more power for you but they also will require more practice and better timing. For me at my level I want to master the stack and tilt fundamentals for consistency before adding more non stack and tilt "power moves" that will create inconsistent timing issues which requires it's own practice. Educate yourself though. Most of the S+T students I have met have moved on to an "evolved" stack and tilt swing to create more power once they have mastered the fundamentals of the stack and tilt. Notice I say "once they have mastered" If you are inconsistent, lack compression and desire a draw then you should give Stack and Tilt an honest effort and make your adjustments from there or at the very least learn what the difference is. Don't make any swing changes without understanding "why" you are doing what you are doing. I feel like a lot of the bad rep it has gotten is from other Pro's protecting their income. If they can't teach it to you then they aren't going to say anything kind about it. Every pro I met that wasn't informed on Stack and Tilt only spoke negatively about it despite not being trained in it themselves. That's unprofessional at its best and I make certain not to send any students their way after. It's one thing to say "I've learned what Stack and tilt is about but I believe this is the better path for you and here's why" but it's quite another to say "don't mess with it, it will only screw you up and I refuse to deal with it or learn more about it". If you encounter any instructor that reacts the 2nd way leave immediately and don't go back. They just want your money and they have lost their ability to learn themselves. All PGA pros continue to go through seminars and should continue to learn more every year. If yours doesn't, that's a big red flag. If ever you get the chance take the seminar with Bennett, it is worth the money and he gives complete 1 on 1 attention even in group lessons. However you learn to swing just always learn the why's. If your pro restricts your knowledge that's a red flag. Always keep your ability to be wrong and learn more. A lot of older pros have lost that and consequently are stuck in their ways. Stack and tilt was a big breakthrough and fix for me and I am extremely glad to have learned and continue to learn more about it. Stack and Tilt Student since September 2012

This is why I'm looking at the swing I want better contact, more consistency and something I don't have to practice night and day to be decent at it.

[DaveST]

It really helps if you have someone to help you. An instructor is irreplaceable.

However short of that, buy a mount for your camera to take footage of your swing so you can continuously work and analyze. Many times what you think you are doing you are not. This way you can make the most of your practice time rather than go through an entire session to find out that you were practicing something wrong

I used the Protosports attachment for the iPhone but there are others on the market. I love the iPhone 5s Slow motion too, extremely helpful

[scopek]

Read through a lot of the beginning pages and thought I would add my experience.

I'm a proud stack and tilt student but when I was first introduced to it I wasn't aware what "stack and tilt" even was. I didn't realize it was what I was being taught until 5 months afterwards. If you are able to find a good informed teacher you will see quick progress. The more I learned about Stack and Tilt the more I learned what makes a swing work. I went from casting my right hand with high banana slices to penetrating draws. After my first 2 lessons I instantly noticed a difference in compression. I stuck with my instructor because of this and continued to learn a great deal. I was lucky enough to work with Bennett a few times as he came through my town and would meet my instructor and each time he did my mind was blown on how quickly he was able to adjust my swing for even more break throughs with his drills and camera. I know there are many moves non stack and tilt that will create more power for you but they also will require more practice and better timing. For me at my level I want to master the stack and tilt fundamentals for consistency before adding more non stack and tilt "power moves" that will create inconsistent timing issues which requires it's own practice.

Educate yourself though. Most of the S+T students I have met have moved on to an "evolved" stack and tilt swing to create more power once they have mastered the fundamentals of the stack and tilt. Notice I say "once they have mastered"

If you are inconsistent, lack compression and desire a draw then you should give Stack and Tilt an honest effort and make your adjustments from there or at the very least learn what the difference is. Don't make any swing changes without understanding "why" you are doing what you are doing. I feel like a lot of the bad rep it has gotten is from other Pro's protecting their income. If they can't teach it to you then they aren't going to say anything kind about it. Every pro I met that wasn't informed on Stack and Tilt only spoke negatively about it despite not being trained in it themselves. That's unprofessional at its best and I make certain not to send any students their way after. It's one thing to say "I've learned what Stack and tilt is about but I believe this is the better path for you and here's why" but it's quite another to say "don't mess with it, it will only screw you up and I refuse to deal with it or learn more about it". If you encounter any instructor that reacts the 2nd way leave immediately and don't go back. They just want your money and they have lost their ability to learn themselves. All PGA pros continue to go through seminars and should continue to learn more every year. If yours doesn't, that's a big red flag.

If ever you get the chance take the seminar with Bennett, it is worth the money and he gives complete 1 on 1 attention even in group lessons. However you learn to swing just always learn the why's. If your pro restricts your knowledge that's a red flag. Always keep your ability to be wrong and learn more. A lot of older pros have lost that and consequently are stuck in their ways. Stack and tilt was a big breakthrough and fix for me and I am extremely glad to have learned and continue to learn more about it.

Stack and Tilt Student since September 2012

Thanks DaveST for sharing your experience. This is an awesome post. I've been playing about 3.5 years now. I started off going to your average PGA professional, but learned about S&T; and it instantly resonated with me. I had some instruction from a S&T; teacher, but he was too far away for me to make consistent gains. I spent the next year or two bouncing back and forth between a few different teachers and methods. I ended up signing up with evolvr (the online lessons) as the 5 Simple Keys seemed to essentially give me the same thing that I wanted out of S&T.; After a few lessons, I recently just asked my evolvr instructor if he can teach me the S&T; pattern through the 5SKs. He said we could do that and that's what we're working on now. It's taken a while, but things are starting to click and I'm striking the ball much better. I'm a huge fan of S&T;, but I like the 5Sks as it's helping me organize a plan of action and puts S&T; into a clearer picture. I'm going to try to occasionally get back to the S&T; instructor to get a eye's on lesson every so often.

I'd absolutely love to take a lesson from Bennett some day. I occasionally go to their site to see when the clinics run. But getting down to Fl would be pretty tough during this phase in my life with a young kid. Someday I'll get down there.

This is why I'm looking at the swing I want better contact, more consistency and something I don't have to practice night and day to be decent at it.

You can't substitute live instruction. But if you can't find anyone, I'd recommend doing evolvr. I don't know if all the instructors are familiar with S&T; (I'd bet most are), but that shouldn't matter.  You can use the 5SKs to guide a S&T; pattern, if that's what you want.

[iacas]

You can't substitute live instruction. But if you can't find anyone, I'd recommend doing evolvr. I don't know if all the instructors are familiar with S&T; (I'd bet most are), but that shouldn't matter.  You can use the 5SKs to guide a S&T; pattern, if that's what you want.

They all are.

And every good swing fits into the 5 Simple Keys®.

[Slowcelica]

It really helps if you have someone to help you. An instructor is irreplaceable. However short of that, buy a mount for your camera to take footage of your swing so you can continuously work and analyze. Many times what you think you are doing you are not. This way you can make the most of your practice time rather than go through an entire session to find out that you were practicing something wrong I used the Protosports attachment for the iPhone but there are others on the market. I love the iPhone 5s Slow motion too, extremely helpful

Yea I have a mount for my camera plus I do most of my practicing in slow motion in front of a mirror.