Stack and Tilt IS TRADITIONAL

[iacas]

I overheard a pro - a guy whose students never improve - tell a person that he taught a "traditional" golf swing instead of "Stack and Tilt."

This infuriates me to no end. Why? Stack and Tilt is the traditional swing. In some ways it's more traditional than the "modern" golf swing.

Again, for those who don't know, Stack and Tilt arose from the study of the greatest players throughout history. Arnold Palmer, Ben Hogan, even Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, Sam Snead, etc. Basically, every great golfer in the steel shaft era. The best golfers are compared and contrasted with the worst, and where the differences lie, answers are found.

Think about the number of things you hear from modern instruction which are not only detrimental but PROVABLY WRONG.

"Your weight should be behind the ball to hit a draw."
"You need to have the perfect grip. Same for your stance, posture, alignment..."
"You want to get 'width' in your backswing." Then they demonstrate width as straight back...
"Stay in your spine angle." Utter garbage.
"Keep your chin up. Straight spine."
"Release the club to hit a draw."
"The ball starts on the direction of your swing path." Ben Hogan knew the truth.
"Rotate your shoulders flat. Get your left shoulder over your right foot in the backswing."

The list goes on... and EVERY ONE of those things can easily be proven to be detrimental at best or flat out WRONG. They aren't opinions, either - they're facts borne out of either science or study of the most "traditional" golfers out there - Hogan, Snead, Palmer, etc.

Why don't golfers improve? Because MODERN instruction is a hocus pocus voodoo ritual where an instructor stands around saying things like "your tempo was no good there" or "loosen up on your grip a little" or "turn behind the ball this time." When the student hits a good one the instructor says "good job" and when the student does poorly the instructor says "you didn't do that seventh thing out of 12 things I told you about..." He always has an out.

The simplest one to understand is that we swing our hands on a plane. Why would you want to take your hands IMMEDIATELY off that plane? Yet modern instruction has us doing just this in order to get "width" - which they then measure incorrectly. True "width" at the top of your backswing is measured from the down-the-line view and sees how DEEP your hands have gotten. That's WIDTH. It's not "take the clubhead back low and slow." It's not "keep the clubhead on the target line."

Why do 95% of golfers slice? Because they slide back to their right side, always have their hands above the plane, and can't get their weight forward in time to hit the ball from the inside.

Where do the best players in the world have 90% of their weight at impact? On the front side. Why does modern instruction want players to slide off the ball and "coil into their right side?" IT DOES NOT WORK. The golfer is unable to get left in time. Those who think they do often fake it by letting the club pull them around after impact. Jack Nicklaus famously had his coach grab his hair to keep his head steady - he didn't load into his right side and he hit the ball plenty far, no?

Yeah, this post is a bit long-winded, but I've yet to see someone listen to a qualified S&T; instructor and NOT have their eyes widened and, heck, opened for the very first time. Modern golf instruction is selling you a bag of tricks when the science - the measurements - are right there in front of them. We're giving a free clinic in Erie on Thursday, June 17th from 6-8pm and I guarantee people's minds will be blown. I can hit a shot - with an open clubface and my entire body in front of the ball - that goes high, draws, and with an incredibly shallow divot.

Stack and Tilt IS traditional golf instruction. It's as traditional as it gets. It may not be "for everyone," but I will tell you this and I've said it before - EVERY PGA Tour pro uses MOST of Stack and Tilt whether they know it or not. You can't hit the ball solidly if your weight isn't well left at impact, for example. Pros don't sway off the ball like the average amateur does. Feel isn't real - get yourself on video and watch how much your head moves sideways or up and down. Or how you pull off the wall. Or how your left wrist looks at impact, or your right heel... Stop taking lessons from someone who doesn't know what he's doing, and do some thinking for yourself.

I don't care if everyone adopts Stack and Tilt or not. But that's not the same thing as what I'm going to say: EVERYONE who wants to get better at golf should LEARN what Stack and Tilt is truly about. ONE if not more of the pieces will help you with your swing, because it's as "traditional" as it gets.

OK, rant over. It's late.

[Squeal]

Honestly, I used to think S&T; was hocus pocus fad stuff like the AJ kind of thing being discussed on another thread, but after reading a lot of Iacas' posts and watching a LOT of tour swings, I've changed my mind and implemented some new things, namely making sure my head is still and sliding my hips forward. By doing this, and checking myself on video once every two weeks or so to try to mark some progress, I'm seeing some great ball striking changes. I don't consider it a S&T; swing.

It's just good fundamentals. My weight still goes to my back foot during the back swing (it has to, even in S&T;), but it just feels like I'm doing it less, thus eliminating unnecessary head movement. Sliding my hips has helped eliminate the spinning of the hips I was doing, and thus eliminated blocks from the inside, or flipping the club to try to save it and snap hooking it. Finally, all of this has created less unnecessary movement with my swing, and created much more consistency.

I'm still pretty young in this game, but my recommendation would be for everyone to video their swing, and see how much their moving around. For me, it was a lot. Thanks to Iacas though. I always look forward to his thoughts on the swing, accompanied of course with videos and pictures explaining his point. They've been a lot of help to my golf game.

[Tomassi]

You should seriously rename this site to stackandtilt.com....

Do you have any testinmonials, before and afters of average golfers now using stack and tilt? I would like to see what average to high handicap players do with this.

[kilbyman]

Wonder how iacas feels about stack and tilt? I wonder what would happen if basketball was taught by joe average golf pro? "You ran down the court too quick that time."

[JML22]

I dont get why it has to be marketed as a completely different swing
Its marketed so annoying and the creator has an annoying voice

[sean_miller]

"You need to have the perfect grip. Same for your stance, posture, alignment..."

I seem to play my best when I have a consistent grip, alignment, and posture. I've been reading The Full Swing by Jack Niclaus and Ken Bowden (ca 1980) and it has a lot of good stuff in it. It's consistent with lessons I took and probably 99% of it is consistent with Stack and Tilt - as long as I keep improving, I'll stick with it. Coincidentally, I get more out of the "How to break . . . " tips in the back of Golf Magazine than I do from swing theory - just me though.

[CoolBreeze20]

EVERY good, repeatable, consistent golf swing on this planet uses 90% of the S&T; "philosophies", without ever really realizing it. It is just packaged differently.

[JetFan1983]

Preach on, Reverend! Love the post. Stack and Tilt has been a godsend for me. Now, if only I could find the time to actually go play rounds....

[mattttt25]

I'll buy most of what you're slinging, except for...

"You need to have the perfect grip. Same for your stance, posture, alignment..."

Sorry, I think grip, posture and alignment are all important.

[Stretch]

I agree. They are important. However, I think Erik means to say they are not fundamental , in that if you look at the very best golfers in the world you will find they do nearly all of those things quite differently from one another. So what's the point of drilling into the poor beginner that there's only one "correct" stance or grip or alignment?

What the best golfers do do alike is hit the ball cleanly, with sufficient power and with a predictable shot shape. Those are the fundamentals.

[MMouse]

As a kid I was very very involved in martial arts. I studied and competed,even had the opportunity to compete internationally in taekwondo.
What does this have to do with stack and tilt, or golf at all?

Well, I was a big Bruce Lee fan. The reason I was a big fan wasn't the movies it was his creation of Jeet Kune Do.
Bruce created a way of fighting that wasn't "traditional", yet it was.
The idea was to take what worked and strip away what didn't work. Instead of just studying karate, you would study many styles and stick to the basics that worked for you.
It was ahead of his time. Today MMA flourishes as the fastest growing sport. When it started out, fighters were mostly from one style. Today, fundamentals have been picked out that have become neccesary to compete as a fighter.

Stack and Tilt is no different. They've taken the traditional elements of what it takes to make sound contact with a ball. My favorite part of the DVD's is when they discount common "fundamentals" and lay out the few fundamentas that really do NEED to occur.
Hopefully somewhere down the road it will experience the same outcome.
I've been practicing only a short short time, and without any lessons. However on Thursday I golfed with my son's former hockey coach ( he last golfed with me 3 weeks ago )

After 8 holes he asked me if I bought a new driver. I said no, same driver. Oh, I was asking because you are hitting it straighter and farther. So I explained the swing to him, but he didn't get it.

[iacas]

Wonder how iacas feels about stack and tilt? I wonder what would happen if basketball was taught by joe average golf pro? "You ran down the court

That's a good one.

I'm not saying you can't rush a swing or have a bad tempo (for you), but again, tempo isn't universal either, and yet in so many golf lessons the average teaching pro will talk about your tempo.

Do you have any testinmonials, before and afters of average golfers now using stack and tilt? I would like to see what average to high handicap players do with this.

If nothing else it's BETTER for the average player. In three swings we have people who have never hit a draw in their LIVES hitting push draws. We have had an 80-year old guy hitting his 5-wood 195 yards. We had one guy drop from an 18 to an 11 handicap in TWO WEEKS. He's a 9 how.

We have hundreds of before and after pictures. Customers have come to our academy from Connecticut, Oregon, Florida, both Carolinas, Ohio, Canada, Russia, Australia, New Hampshire, New York, California, and virtually every other state (I think we're missing Vermont). Yeah, we have testimonials. But that's beside the point... look at the actual information and decide for yourself. It's not a "new" swing. It's solid and based on geometry, physics, and again the study of what the greats in the game did and do that help make them great - and conversely, what the amateur does that makes them suck.

Honestly, I used to think S&T; was hocus pocus fad stuff like the AJ kind of thing being discussed on another thread, but after reading a lot of Iacas' posts and watching a LOT of tour swings, I've changed my mind and implemented some new things, namely making sure my head is still and sliding my hips forward.

Good for you. We don't force everyone into one bin. Tiger Woods implements, say, 6 of the 9 pieces. He could improve if he implemented one more (hand path most likely to stop getting off plane) and if he was not comfortable with the last two pieces so be it. (There aren't necessarily "nine pieces" but I'm just making an example.)

By doing this, and checking myself on video once every two weeks or so to try to mark some progress, I'm seeing some great ball striking changes. I don't consider it a S&T; swing.

People thought Aaron Baddeley had a great swing... then they found out it had a name and started bashing it. You could watch Dave hit balls and not know it's S&T.; Or me. Heck, I played with a guy earlier this year who said "You teach S&T; too? Your swing looks so TRADITIONAL." I said "Do you consider Ben Hogan's swing traditional? Because he did a lot of what we teach - more than most players these days."

It's just good fundamentals. My weight still goes to my back foot during the back swing (it has to, even in S&T;)

It does, you're right. But it's probably not because you've made a massive SLIDE or pushed your shoulders back to get there.

but it just feels like I'm doing it less, thus eliminating unnecessary head movement. Sliding my hips has helped eliminate the spinning of the hips I was doing, and thus eliminated blocks from the inside, or flipping the club to try to save it and snap hooking it. Finally, all of this has created less unnecessary movement with my swing, and created much more consistency.

Good for you. Sincerely.

I'm still pretty young in this game, but my recommendation would be for everyone to video their swing, and see how much their moving around. For me, it was a lot. Thanks to Iacas though. I always look forward to his thoughts on the swing, accompanied of course with videos and pictures explaining his point. They've been a lot of help to my golf game.

Appreciate the kind words.

When someone comes to the Academy we don't say "we need to fix these 12 things so you can swing like the S&T; model. We fix the most glaring piece, and people improve - often immediately.

I seem to play my best when I have a consistent grip, alignment, and posture.

Good for you. But your grip, alignment, and posture are somewhat unique to you. Your grip, alignment, and posture couldn't have been used by Lee Trevino, or Paul Azinger, or Vijay Singh. They had unique setups. You're missing the point if you think I'm saying GAPS (grip, alignment, posture, setup) aren't important.

EVERY good, repeatable, consistent golf swing on this planet uses 90% of the S&T; "philosophies", without ever really realizing it. It is just packaged differently.

Yes. And unfortunately a lot of it gets lost in the shuffle and comes out awkwardly when the advice is given to average golfers.

Preach on, Reverend! Love the post. Stack and Tilt has been a godsend for me. Now, if only I could find the time to actually go play rounds....

Sorry, I think grip, posture and alignment are all important.

I never said they were unimportant. But everyone has their own, so they're unique, and unless one piece of your GAPS is prohibiting you from a) hitting the ball first, b) hitting the ball with power, or c) controlling the curve, you just let it be. Again, there's a range, but there's no ONE grip, alignment, etc...

However, I think Erik means to say they are not

Thanks Stretch.

As a kid I was very very involved in martial arts. I studied and competed,even had the opportunity to compete internationally in taekwondo.

I like the analogy. I might steal it if that's okay with you.

P.S. I won't be able to respond to this thread for awhile. I'm off to teach a school today.

[tm22721]

Getting into early position to hit...means getting as far forward and rotated as possible.

The golf ball doesn't care WHAT you call it or HOW you do it.

[Stretch]

The golf ball doesn't care WHAT you call it.

That's a good thing. Because I've said some pretty mean things to mine on occasion!

[TempoIsKey]

Before I start, just let me say that I am not a S &T; hater, I'm actually considering educating myself more on the principals. So with that said, are you saying that the fundamentals that Ben Hogan so adamantly talks about in his book in the first two chapters, are not particularly valuable or important?

[jamo]

Before I start, just let me say that I am not a S &T; hater, I'm actually considering educating myself more on the principals. So with that said, are you saying that the fundamentals that Ben Hogan so adamantly talks about in his book in the first two chapters, are not particularly valuable or important?

He never said grip isn't important. Let me direct you here:

But your grip, alignment, and posture are somewhat unique to you. Your grip, alignment, and posture couldn't have been used by Lee Trevino, or Paul Azinger, or Vijay Singh. They had unique setups. You're missing the point if you think I'm saying GAPS (grip, alignment, posture, setup) aren't important.

[Jonnydanger81]

I've been playing golf off and on since I was a kid while getting more serious the last 2 years and a week or two ago I started implementing S&T; into my current swing. I've never hit the ball more consistently than I have the last few weeks, and even better I can tell what I'm doing when I swing. To me the swing feels natural and makes sense. If nothing else, reading the book and listening to some of the fundamentals behind the swing will give you some great insight on the golf swing as a whole and and give you some things to think about.

[sean_miller]

Think about the number of things you hear from modern instruction which are not only detrimental but PROVABLY WRONG.

Based on this post, it doesn't seem to be about grip, alignment and posture.

Good for you. But your grip, alignment, and posture are somewhat unique to you. Your grip, alignment, and posture couldn't have been used by Lee Trevino, or Paul Azinger, or Vijay Singh. They had unique setups. You're missing the point if you think I'm saying GAPS (grip, alignment, posture, setup) aren't important.

I was just referring to the exact words you wrote in post #1. Find a post where I've said my specific grip, posture, or alignment would be the best model for another player and I'll offer a rebuttal. I said those pieces are important - my pieces, my fundamentals - they're important to my swing.